dstark

Bluebayou, I doubt that 25% of UNC's classes are run by TAs.

mini

"So Princeton has 0% TAs. USNWR says so."

In addition to her graduate fellowship, my D. was a very well-paid TA at Princeton last year. She was a first-year graduate student. She was responsible for two sections, each with 30 students, which met twice a week. And she was responsible for teaching new material - not just for going over the lecture the professor delivered. Not only that, but she graded ALL the tests and papers (with two other TAs), for a total of 275 students - the professor played no role in that whatsoever. Every first-year who had passed his/her language exams TAed in her Department - no exceptions. Next year, she will likely be teaching (not TAing) a class in a completely different department.

Now the reality is that there were likely certain areas (in her field) where she knew more than the professor. But whether she could communicate well in a smallish setting is another story.

When I was a TA at the University of Chicago, I am certain that in many, many cases, I could have given a better lecture than the professor leading the class. My research was more up to date, and I am sure I had a more engaging speaking style. But whether I could handle a small seminar environment as well (which is what I was paid to do) is another story.

"I've been in the 'big' classes in a major public university and also a community college with 30 students in those same classes. The classes were just 'better' at the CC. They didn't teach less, they taught less students more efficiently. Classes at big public universities are smaller farther down the line. But, for a lot of classes you are still stuck with large classes."

Following my time at Chicago, I taught at a community college. Because of my greater experience, there is no question but that I was a better teacher at the CC than at Chicago.

dstark

Nice mini. Congrats to your daughter.

I find USNWR data very fishy.

"Following my time at Chicago, I taught at a community college. Because of my greater experience, there is no question but that I was a better teacher at the CC than at Chicago."

mini

But USNWR is correct - there are NO TAs at Princeton - they simply call them "preceptors".

dstark

lol..............................

rogracer

In addition to the above comments, it may may come of interest that I was a TA at MIT and taught a couple of Labs, and was responsible for grading undergrad papers and assignments in a number of other classes. It is not just the large publics that use TAs...a lot of privates use them...perhaps virtually all that are classified as NRUs. And personally, I see nothing wrong with that.

kayf

This is why campus visits are critical. And not just the guided tour part, but leave time to walk around. Pear around -- look in class rooms. Talk to kids, not just the tour leaders. If possible, see if someone from your kids high school is attending. See if you can take him/her out for lunch. Dont ask, are they happy. That kid may be happy/unhappy, but your kid may be looking for a different experienc. Do ask these questions -- how many kids in classes, what about the area your child may be majoring in.

bluebayou

I agree that 25% is a high number; perhaps the reporting instructions are confusing. OTOH, UNC is known for TA's running classes without Profs -- my niece, a recent CH grad, confirmed that some Frosh and & Soph courses are TA only (which you will not find at UCSD).

dstark

I find USNWR's numbers screwy. Anyway.. I asked a student at UNC.

And this is his response.

"I highly doubt it. I'm a junior at UNC and have yet to have taken a class taught by a TA. TA's usually lead smaller recitation sections that are a part of the larger, more impersonal lecture courses."

Keilexandra

bclintonk - How many philosophy majors graduated with you at Michigan? How many professors were in the department? E.g. I have NEVER heard an English major at a large public university report never taking a major class >25 students and without any TAs (I count discussion sections as classes, especially in the humanities).

I do consider the languages/literatures/cultures of India and Brazil obscure; that doesn't mean they're unimportant. I consider linguistics obscure, too, and it's vital to emerging technologies in the subfield of natural language processing.

I should note, in fairness, that even some LACs use TAs for language instruction. The Intermediate Chinese class I sat in at Carleton was taught on alternating days by a professor and a "language associate" (basically a native speaker TA).

bluebayou - If you prefer world expert lectures over class discussion, why is a physical university necessary at all? MIT's OpenCourseWare has excellent prof lectures, free. If students are going on aimlessly in discussion, a good professor will rein them in and direct the flow of conversation. That's more of a teaching skill than a knowledge skill. But of course some people will prefer to simply listen to lectures, or prefer a mix of both styles; that's their perogative.


Also, I just looked this up: Yale requires all English grad students to teach at least 2 "sections or courses"; Stanford requires them to teach "two pedagogical seminars and four quarters of supervised teaching (two as a teaching assistant in a literature course and two as an instructor of a writing course for the Program in Writing and Rhetoric)." Yale might just have more TAs and is able to distribute the teaching load better, so this doesn't distinguish among the top Us, only between Us and LACs.

bluebayou

Perhaps so, but the college is still solely responsible. They obviously provide the number in the first place and are smart enough (and competitive enough?) to look-see how they compare to their "peers." If their numbers are out of line with their peer institutions (or "screwy") they could easily fix/adjust/correct them for the next year's edition. If the CDS instructions are unclear, any college could call up USNews and ask for guidance; indeed, UChicago did same a couple of years ago and jumped into the top 10 by correcting/adjusting/properly counting their Frosh tutorials.

Since UNC chooses not to correct the numbers.....

dstark

A physical university is necessary because of it gives you the physical connections and social connections that you can't get online. Why do business people make business trips instead of using the internet or the phone?

Because elements are missing when you are not in the same physical space.

And just because you have lectures doesn't mean you don't have discussions also. You can still have your discussion groups. You can still meet with a professor during office hours or another time. Access to a professor was never an issue for me. Maybe times have changed, but I don't think so.

I would rather hear from people who had the opportunity to make policy, or were advisors, who were the leaders, who are making the discoveries, rather than listen to the followers or a bunch of speculation.

It's like the difference between actually listening to and having access to Obama, or watching Fox news.

dstark

Bluebayou, I don't care who is responsible for the numbers. The numbers are off and so to form assumptionss based on the numbers leads to inaccurate opinions. Period.

The rest are excuses.

Keilexandra

Exactly--a physical university is necessary for interaction. Sitting in a lecture hall is not interaction. Schools could still save a lot of money by having virtual lectures and "real" office hours or "real" TA-led discussion sections.

dstark

You don't need the same interaction every minute.

We're probably going to go to more work online. Many students prefer access to online classes. They can listen to lectures when they want.

But just because there is a lecture doesn't mean there aren't interactions. Most lectures I have been to have question and answer periods. There can be experiments. There can be breaks in the lecture for students to interact among themselves.

By the way, even schools like Pomona have lectures. The amount of students in the classroom is smaller, but there are lectures.