Why are you SO emotionally invested in"proving" that Columbia and Chicago are inferior to Stanford. If you are secure with Stanford's reputation, it shouldn't matter. Clearly you are not.
Rather than casting aspersions on my character, it might behoove you to actually address the points in my post. I can only hope Chicago students are taught to argue more effectively than that! To put things in Aristotelian terms, it is better to stick to logos rather than pathos or ethos. As for my motives, suffice it to say that I am genuinely puzzled. Many people would place Stanford second only to Harvard at the undergraduate level.
Rankings from 100 years ago are all well and good, but they're hardly relevant to the discussion at hand. Certainly less so than even the rankings from the 90s you scorn! Sure, go back to 1920, and Stanford wasn't as good. Go back to 1860, and Chicago didn't even exist. At one point Yale and Amherst were the largest colleges in the US. Who cares? What matters is that in 2012 Stanford is outperforming Columbia and Chicago in almost every measure of academic heft.
I'd like to see something other than Nobels or the core trotted out yet again...they're not particularly convincing.
No, what matters is that a certain magazine didn't say "Stanford is performing better than Chicago or Columbia." If Stanford hadn't been ranked lower, you would not be in "hostile territory" -- the Chicago and Columbia boards -- attempting to convince us of Stanford's superiority. So, what matters is clearly the ranking, which is rankling. Whatever statistics you trot out are irrelevant to the USNWR judgment, which judgment you are attempting to "appeal" on boards that are not particularly sympathetic to your case.
Is Stanford measurably better? How do you define better, and for whom? Statistics are meaningless if the goal of a college search is to find a school that fits ones needs, inclinations, and bent of talent. Hoorah for Stanford on all these measures you cite. Stanford is also known to be less intellectual and more pre-professional than either Chicago or Columbia, and without a rigorous core. Intellectualism and a core were two factors that determined MY college choice. Chicago was BETTER for me because of who I am, your Stanford statistics and measurements be damned. Columbia was just named by Newsweek the most rigorous college in America, and for a certain kind of intellectual student it is BETTER than would be Stanford. Your statistics do not PROVE that Stanford IS BETTER for every student, that it is a cookie-cutter for all sizes and shapes of intellect and talent.
And manners do count, sir. No one from Chicago or Columbia, as far as I know, has gone to the Stanford or MIT boards to "gloat" or to prove that these two schools are deserving of their rankings, so screw Stanford and MIT. We were just enjoying the results among "family," shall I say, and it seems particularly ill-mannered and, really, boorish of you to come to these boards to insult schools to which you have no connection, just because the rankings in this magazine aren't the rankings you prefer.
I am not going to bother to refute you because, really, this is an argument that is not necessary on THESE particular boards. The rankings are what they are. Better luck next year.
Actually Columbia outperforms Stanford in almost every field in 2012.
US Government
1) In 2012 current US president Columbia graduate and
2) Obama administration is dominated by Columbia graduates. (very few stanford alumni)
3) In 2012, the richest Columbia graduate (Warren Buffet) is richer than the richest Stanford graduate.
In Academic field
4) Columbia produced more Nobel laureates than Stanford.
5) Columbia ranked higher than Stanford UN News ranking.
6) Columbia university is also ranked higher in QS World University Ranking.
7) Columbia is the most rigorous school ( newsweek)
8)Financial industry is dominated by Columbia graduates, e.g. Morgan Stanley CEO, Citibank CEO, Goldman Sach's largest shareholder are all Columbia graduates.
Last edited by collegeboy10028; 09-12-2012 at 09:21 PM.
Swingtime,
I enjoy reading your argument, you wrote wonderful articles.
Also like to read those statistics and facts from some other folks. They are all great universities, Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, MIT, etc.....
Everyone must realize that people discount undergraduate education far too often and consider mostly graduate reputation when deciding which schools are most prestigious. Because of this, Stanford and MIT will always be considered more prestigious in the eyes of laymen than C & C (although MIT only has a business school to boast in terms of the big 3 grad programs). When we look at almost all rankings for graduate programs (big 3 and specialty programs included) Stanford & MIT trumps Columbia & Chicago.
I really am dubious about Chicago's ranking (although I believe it's PA score should be higher) but I believe Columbia's ranking as 4th is justified.
1 Harvard University
1 Princeton University
3 Yale University
4 Columbia University 4 University of Chicago
6 Stanford University
6 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
8 Duke University
8 University of Pennsylvania
10 California Institute of Technology (Caltech)
10 Dartmouth
QS World University Rankings 2012 (US only)
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
2 Harvard University
3 Yale University 4 University of Chicago
5 Princeton University
6 California Institute of Technology (Caltech)
7 Columbia University
8 University of Pennsylvania
9 Cornell University
10 Stanford University
11 Johns Hopkins University
12 University of Michigan
13 Duke University
Forbes America's Top College
1 Princeton University
2 Williams College
3 Stanford University 4 University of Chicago
5 Yale University
6 Harvard University
7 United States Military Academy
8 Columbia University
9 Pomona College
10 Swarthmore College
11 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
12 University of Notre Dame
13 Amherst College
14 Bowdoin College
15 Washington and Lee University
16 Wellesley College
17 University of Pennsylvania
18 California Institute of Technology
19 Brown University
20 Vassar College
By objective academic criteria, neither Columbia nor Chicago matches up to MIT or Stanford's level. In my opinion, UCB, UCLA or U of Washington are extremely formidable, probably better in terms of research capacity than both Chicago and Columbia. But the US news is for undergraduate college. It introduces a lot of insignificant factors into the ranking, which universities or professors won't care about.
Apparently USNWR disagrees with you. Look, the rankings are what they are. No "proof" or opinion you can offer is going to change them. You are beating a dead horse. The schools you mention are superb, but no independent (non-affiliated) observer in the academic world considers UCLA or U of W. superior to Columbia or Chicago. Berkeley is a peer school.
You need to either accept the rankings or just get over them. Coming to the Columbia board to bash Columbia makes you look foolish, not to mention desperate and insecure.
Get a life. Or, if you cannot, do something POSITIVE and PRODUCTIVE with your time: go to the forum of a school with which you have some actual affiliation and relish the opportunity to celebrate that school with like-minded posters, whatever school that may happen to be.
What is telling is the "Selectivity Ranking"? It shows which school is most selective and hardest to get in. Most other factors in US News ranking are very subjective and are easy to manipulate. Year in and year out, Yale is the most selective. The smartest kids go to Yale. Students fixating on so called "prestige" go to Harvard for its "Big" name. People prefer one school to another for different reasons. There is almost no difference between the top 5 or 6 schools. It is useless to argue about it.
Forget about US News. Stanford does not even compete with Columbia and Chicago for faculty. or students-- it is far superior to either of these two schools. Chicago has no engineering, pyhsical science or computer science prominence at all; Columbia is no comparison in any of the physical sciences. Conversely, Stanford is at least on par with both Chicago and Columbia in humanities and social sciences....Stanfordstudents could care less about these rankings.
But YOU clearly care about these rankings, because you persist in coming to the Columbia board to trumpet the virtues of Stanford WHENEVER rankings are released and Stanford gets trounced. Please parade your insecurities on the Stanford board and stop this nonsense. USNWR has spoken, and no insecure chest-beating to the contrary changes the fact. Grow up. Oh, and it is COULDN'T CARE LESS not, as you so incorrectly wrote, "COULD care less." Hmmm, that error must reflect the Stanford in you.
