Snivellus

The Claremont consortium is different than Barnard's situation, because the people at, let's say Scripps, aren't getting a degree from Pomona.. they only share their resources.

calmom

Columbia University (Columbia college/SEAS) is Ivy League

"Ivy League" is an athletic conference. Columbia University participates in the Ivy League athletic conference via the aptly named "Columbia-Barnard Athletic Consortium".

calmom

I had dinner with a group of new people last night. Here is the exact conversation that went down at one point:

Context: A college prof mentions how difficult it was for him to learn Czech while living in Prague. I comment that slavic languages are quite difficult, mentioning that my daughter studied Russian extensively in high school but still had found her college courses to be very demanding.

College Prof: "Where does your daughter go to college?"

Me: "She goes to Barnard."

College Prof: "That's the woman's college at Columbia, right?"

Me: "Yes,she studied Russian at Columbia"

Woman sitting next to me: "I graduated from Barnard. It's a separate college"

Me: "That's true. The college has a separate admissions and administration, but the Slavic Languages department is joint with Columbia."

The point? If the issue at hand was, "Calmom's daughter" then "Barnard" would suffice as an answer; but if the issue at hand was, "quality of Russian department at X college" .... then it would be rather unfair to fail to give credit to the faculty doing the teaching in Hamilton Hall.

Now it happens that my d. has one class in particular in her major (not Russian) that she raves about. If my conversation had started last night with "how much my d. loves her colloquium professor".... then my response to the comment about "Barnard at Columbia" would probably have been, "Well, Barnard is affiliated with Columbia, but this class is at Barnard." So at that point, we would be over at the Barnard-only part of the Venn diagram.

Again... its all about context.

acinva

The other day I ran into an old acquaintance who asked about my children.

Me: "My son is a student at Columbia University in New York and my daughter graduated from Oberlin College in Ohio."

Her: "Oberlin College? I never heard of it."

Me: "Oh, it's an LAC in the small town of Oberlin, Ohio."

Her: "Hmmmmmm."

Me: "So how are your children doing?"

The point? Who cares whether or not she ever heard of Oberlin College. I don't give a damn. If she really cares, let her google it.

ConfucianNemisis

Sniv, I see what your saying but that's not the point. You bring up the diplomas (one of the retreaded pieces of "Evidence" that always comes up...), but the diplomas are a term of the relationship, they don't define it.

If all five claremont colleges agreed to issue one diploma, but each signed by the dean of the respective school, it wouldn't that change the relationship between the schools.

Columbia2002

Who cares? The tons of parents who love to play the "mine is bigger" game with other parents to prove how wonderful their little darlings are.

The Columbia and Barnard diplomas are materially different in a number of ways. It's more than just one signature's difference.

This is what people call an "PWN4G3" (ownage).

Your answer to his "That's the woman's college at Columbia, right?" question was non-responsive. To the extent that you felt the need to add extraneous information to provide context, you should have initially provided the full scope of information that you later provided when you were rightly called out.

ConfucianNemisis

This is probably going down a rabbit hole, but you can compare them here: Diplomas - WikiCU, the Columbia University wiki encyclopedia

The Barnard diploma has the seal of barnard college in addition to that of the university, and the latin is a little different and includes a reference to Barnard College. But it's still bestowed by the Trustees of Columbia University and signed by its President.

My point is that this doesn't "prove" anything, like many people want to say it does. All it proves is that as part of the institutional agreement between the two schools, Columbia continues to grant the diplomas that Barnard graduates receive. Wonderful symbolism, but it doesn't matter where it counts. As far as Columbia is concerned, Barnard students (along with Teachers College graduates, who also get their degrees from Columbia and go to the same big commencement extravaganza that graduating students from all 16 Columbia and 2 affiliated schools attend) never graduated from Columbia: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abst..._2006-2007.htm

House of London

OMG! This Barnard vs. Columbia quarrell again?

I can't believe you guys are seriously going to go through this. Barnard and Columbia are like family. No need to be hostile.

A Persona

A lot of people mentioned Barnard students using the Columbia name deceptively to get jobs, so when I was on campus, I asked around and found out what Barnard women wrote on their resumes.

The overwhelming answer was a quizzical look and "Barnard College." Some also said "Barnard College - Columbia University." I did not find a single woman who either listed her education as "Columbia University - Barnard College" or, worse yet, "Columbia University."

Now, I'm not saying these women don't exist - but they MUST be in the minority. By the way, talking to both Columbia and Barnard students, they didn't seem to feel any sort of dislike toward the other institution although they did mention some "hostile things that get said on the blogosphere" and "competition for Columbia guys."

Conclusion: As it was about SAT scores and being leader of every team, this is a classical CC case of "much ado about nothing."

Edit - Oh, part of the reason I asked was because I was writing a resume for internships and wasn't sure what to put down. I'll be going to Barnard next fall. Well, when I went to an interview and my interviewer, a columbia alum, saw that it said I'd be going to Barnard College next fall, he smiled and started giving me a whole load of tips on surviving Columbia. O-o Yeah, so I guess it didn't matter that much to him.

Columbia2002

How you heard of the Wilder/Bradley effect (i.e., people tell pollsters they're voting for the black guy because they don't want to seem racist and then go vote for the white guy, so black candidates poll much better than they turn out the vote)? Take it from there, genius...

Columbia2002

doubleposted

A Persona

No reason to be rude, Columbia2002.

If you look back at what I wrote, I mentioned that I'm sure there are people who do write that way on their resume. However, I don't think it's that prevalent.

On another note, why does this matter? They're not actually harming anyone (except perhaps themselves because having completed a women's college is a big plus for some employers too). The Columbia student will still find work, there's no reason to worry about it. The employer probably couldn't care less either - if you're smart enough to get top grades in Columbia classes, they don't care what your degree says.

It seems like an ego issue to me and I believe most Columbia and Barnard students are intelligent enough not to succumb to such silly things.

confidentialcoll

"However, I don't think it's that prevalent. "

Your judgment of it's prevalence was from asking people. C02 was pointing out why that judgment is almost certainly biased, because the information (people's responses) which you were basing the judgment from is probably flawed. What they say has no bearing on what they do.

"They're not actually harming anyone. The Columbia student will still find work, there's no reason to worry about it."

It's a clear case of misrepresentation to only state Columbia university instead of Barnard college. I can't tell you the exact effect of this misrepresentation for certain. But here are a few probable consequences: Barnard is easier to get into than Columbia, so Barnard classes would be easier to do well in, meaning a 3.5 gpa at Barnard is probably much easier to come by than a 3.5 at columbia. So to have a 3.5 at Barnard and say "Columbia university 3.5" would be lying and giving yourself an unfair advantage. Barnard and Columbia students can cross register, but they still take the majority of their classes at their own school. and GPA is still school specific. Columbia is also better known and people consider it to have more prestige, these are all advantages diluted by more students (Barnard students) identifying themselves by Columbia. Think of it this way, if all the SUNY students said they went to columbia and stated their gpas as Columbia gpas would it then still not make a difference? I really hope everything does not have to spelled out in black and white to understand shades of gray.

"except perhaps themselves because having completed a women's college is a big plus for some employers too"

Not for the jobs that are competitive to get. For the reasons cited above and more - there is large incentive to say you go to Columbia instead of Barnard. Companies might have a GPA cutoff for interviewing candidates from Columbia, that cut off could well be much higher for Barnard students, it's cheating the system to misrepresent yourself, and don't tell me no one gets affected when others cheat the system. Each person cheating incrementally hurts the system and makes it slightly worse for everyone else.

If a Barnard student is brilliant, they should have all the more reason to cite their own school, so as to make a better name for it, I say the same of columbia students in a scenario when going to an all girls college is an advantage.

ConfucianNemisis

I think Con Col is being a bit harsh, but he's generally right.

What bothers people (myself included) is the misrepresentation. Either you did not get into, or chose not to apply to or attend Columbia. Why then do you say you go to Columbia?

Frankly speaking I don't think the misrepresentation has any serious impact. If you honestly think a Barnard student saying they go to Columbia is somehow besmirching or diluting the value of your Columbia degree, you're probably insecure. Trust your own merits to speak for themselves.

I think ConCol is running into thin speculative ice with the GPA speak. Comparing SUNY to Barnard is off the mark, as is the assumption about cross registration. Leaving aside the "easier classes" remarks, because I don't think they're necessarily true (most liberal arts classes aren't graded on a curve, so it doesn't matter who you're competing against), there are different academic standards at both schools. Specifically, the cut-off for Dean's List honors at barnard is much lower (3.4 vs. 3.6). Someone who doesn't know that the two schools are different wouldn't know this.

Again, I don't buy the cutoff stuff. Why are you conjuring up an unnecesarry double standard? In your hypothetical, the scheming Columbia student can take classes at Barnard, which you allege are easier, and easily clear the supposedly lower GPA cutoff, while the Barnard student who takes the "harder" classes at Columbia is punished because she has to meet a higher standard? Besides, most of the on-campus recruiting is school specific. Columbia's Career Office doesn't offer services to Barnard and vice versa.

Getting back to the main point, most of these arguments involve two strawmen - The Barnard Student Who Says She Goes to Columbia and The Person Who Is Being Hoodwinked By The Unscrupulous Barnard Student.

These two nefarious characters don't typically exist in the extreme forms that people get into a huff about.

But consider this: a Barnard grad goes into an interviewer. The interviewer goes "Barnard?" What does she say?
a) It's the women's college at Columbia University
b) It's one of the colleges of Columbia University
c) It's a women's college affiliated with Columbia University

Most probably give a variation of a or b. Though they're wrong, they probably reflect the reality on the ground pretty good. C is the technically correct answer, but let's be honest here- if you're an employer, and you're in a 30 minute interview, and the interviewee gives you answer c, in your mind you probably think it's the same thing as a or b and move on.

Summary: Barnard is not the same as Columbia. Most people outside of Morningside Heights probably can't tell the difference.

confidentialcoll

"Comparing SUNY to Barnard is off the mark,"

I wasn't, I was using a more extreme comparison to show why misrepresentation hurts the system.

"In your hypothetical, the scheming Columbia student can take classes at Barnard"

I qualified this by saying Barnard and Columbia students take most classes at their own schools.

"If you honestly think a Barnard student saying they go to Columbia is somehow besmirching or diluting the value of your Columbia degree, you're probably insecure."

It isn't a case of insecurity, I'm proud that I go to Columbia I see the degree as valuable, but misrepresentation is unnecessary and more people claiming to go to "one of Columbia's undergraduate schools" does dilute the value in saying that. Shades of gray again.

"Trust your own merits to speak for themselves."

yes, this good advice for a Barnard student claiming to go to Columbia.

"The Barnard Student Who Says She Goes to Columbia and The Person Who Is Being Hoodwinked By The Unscrupulous Barnard Student. These two nefarious characters don't typically exist in the extreme forms that people get into a huff about."

I've met several Barnard girls who consider that they go to Columbia after being rejected by columbia college. It isn't uncommon, and it's more likely to happen on a resume than in conversation. When people work hard to get in and to do well at Columbia, I can see why they're ticked off by students from a separate school claiming to have the same qualifications.

"if you're an employer, and you're in a 30 minute interview, and the interviewee gives you answer c, in your mind you probably think it's the same thing as a or b and move on."

affiliated is different from being a part of, interviewers pay attention to such details, if the interviewer has not heard of Barnard it would probably be at a later stage of life, when your college education is a less important/relevant qualification.

Your college is more relevant for internships and jobs straight after graduation, here the employer tends to know the difference. The problem, and what people on this board are so adamant about, is often that the interviewer is unaware that the candidate is at Barnard, because it wasn't stated on resume, and so the question never even arises. The Barnard candidate could get the interview in the first place over a more deserving Columbia student.