I'm gonna offer a few speculating views, that are worth precisely what this is costing.
1. DU is more liberal than W&L among students. They succumbed to the Obama line more than W&L, which simply suggests DU students may be less politically engaged, more vulnerable to uninformed lemming effects.
2. W&L is a more visible institution, especially in business communities.
3. W&L is a real "Southern" u, whatever that means.
4. Greek life is more evident @ W&L, of necessity. Lexington is near nowhere, beyond miles of really beautiful scenery.
Engage Esquette in this one ...she's spent days @ both.
Would you go so far as to suggest that DU has a conservative bent?
Went to Hillsdale with my DD and was blown away. This is after visits to DU, Wooster, Richmond, Wofford, Rhodes, Southwestern, Davidson, and Kenyon. Wish it had appeared on my radar for my DS.
Not that I have any reservations against a "qualified" student, but when you decline all state and federal support, were the first declare non discrimination and are therefore afforded the opportunity to choose ANYONE who meets your academic standards, it's a pretty attractive environment.
Redefining conservatives in the very best of ways, Hillsadale stands on it's own. I hope DU appreciates the lead...
As both a DU and W&L parent, I can say that conservative students can certainly feel comfortable on both campuses. W&L prob has more of a reputation for conservative student body but that reality is changing so that all points of view are available as part of the campus political conversation. Don't want to sound too PC, but I really have seen that with the shift in student body due to the extraordinary fin aid.
Like WP, I get the sense that DU has a more middle of the road political presence, with neither "side" (I just hate those labels) dominating the conversations. I can tell you that when my son and his roommate voted in the pres. election, they had no problem walking down the hall and loudly (well at least the roommate) announcing that they were not voting for Obama. No repercussions at all, one way or the other.
Grin -- hang in there! Not surprised by UR decision -- the kid we know and love who got the full ride there is an int'l from Africa, by way of two European countries and a US private hs, speaks 6 languages, everybody loves him, plus highly recruited soccer player. Hard to match that profile!
One of the things we like best about DU is their scholarship philosophy -- they believe in spreading out the wealth, making college more affordable for a bigger percentage of the student body (e.g., middle class folks who don't qualify for any/much need based aid), instead of giving the bigger dollars to a smaller percentage of students (all deserving no doubt). We love that the vast majority of DU kids get some merit aid - I have always believed that students will work hard to be deserving of such generosity and opportunity. That means working hard in the classroom and giving their talents outside of it.
I told you Esq.uette's views would lend far more genuine insight in comparing these 2 places!
However, one comment made me smile ...the reality, a good one for sure, that a student could walk down the hallway proclaiming their affection, loyalty and votes for Obama. My guess is the vast majority @ DU proclaimed such.
Conversely, mine made the comment that she and her pal had McCain buttons ...and it was a LONELY day on campus. I suspect that DU was a monumental Obama landslide, and would be interested and quite pleased to learn my observation is totally off-base. The good news, if there is any here? Those Obama voters didn't exhibit much purple hair.
That noted, the more important question about this specific illustration?
Who would they vote for today? I'd like to think they'd not be fooled twice, being the bright young folks we believe them to be. Are they learning anything?
Lord, help us. And don't allow this moment of instruction to be fatal to future possibilities.
P.S. Grin ...your point of Hillsdale is on the money. It is a literally one-of-a-kind institution in the USA. Grove City also proclaims the same of no fed aid, but it is a far different institution than Hillsdale, driven by pricetag that ultimately impacts the resources available to students. Hillsdale is very unusual and interesting.
Last edited by Whistle Pig; 03-15-2010 at 06:29 PM.
Founder's scholarship of $18,000 per year! Happy? Indeed. Will the DS make the move to Granville? My guess would be no. Although he enjoyed our trip there, he had DU as his third choice behind Wooster and Wofford.
Surely there is lobbying to be done and I eagerly await the flattery and correspondence that other accepted DU students have enjoyed.
We'll see what happens.
IMHO, one of the glaring weaknesses of the others is the obvious lack of passion exhibited by parents on this forum. WP, Esquette, and Erin's Dad have been very informed, eloquent advocates for Denison. If I were to visit again with my DS or perhaps my DD, I'd love to meet any of you at Whit's. The custard is on me.
Thanks once again for all kind encouragement and well wishes. The comments you've made to help guide those of us struggling through this process have been nothing short of selfless.
Grin ...1st congrats on the scholarship! Always good, even if it's a #3.
You've offered genuine insight to a complex issue on the passion thing. And I don't think you're off the mark.
For another day's exploration.
How 'bout them terriers! (Or whatever Wofford's mascot is ...NCAA bid! A great boost for a 1200 student body school! I remember when Davidson had 900 and made the final 4 under Lefty Driesell.)
btw, Denison a "conservative" bent? NO WAY. (had to clean my screen ...) While not feverishly or fanatically political, this is a place that was swamped by Obama-mania, has a "naked week," and a "coming out" day. Not many Hillsdale undergraduate degrees among the faculty. Count on it.
Congrats on the scholarship Grinfixer. Good luck in your DS's further scholarship fishing. Will DD be looking at schools soon? I know when my DD2 looked she decided early on not to attend her sister's school so she went west.
I'm sure DD will look in Ohio. Centre, Hendrix, Juniata, and Allegheny are on the radar. Once again looking for merit money. As stated previously, visited Hillsdale and she loved it. Beloit not so much.
I'll ship DS off just in time to begin visits with the DD. DD2 will be two years after that. That will be all. Except for DS 2 nine years later.
WP -- haha not sure you read my post correctly -- they were announcing that they were NOT voting for Obama and did feel comfortable. Son does not feel like he's overwhelmed in his conservative views.
Congrats, Grinfixer and family on DU and all your options! Your comments re passion of DU board strike me bc one of the things I have always known about DU is how devoted their alums and students are. Have seen it in action recently as well, when we hosted a last minute dinner for DU alums in our hometown to meet with a DU rep, we had 100% turnout, with one alum even travelling 2 hrs just to get together with his friend in our town. Maybe it's just cyber-passion hasn't hit DU yet
IMHO it's VERY important to make campus visits for accepted students seriously considering enrolling (unless the decision is purely financial, of course). I have known quite a few who changed their minds and a couple who wished they had done so.
LOL ...indeed I DID misread and had already written your magnificent lad outta the will. I'm off to my own esquire tomorrow and he gets my used Saturn, which by the time he becomes owner, it'll be worth more than my grandad's Edsel, that had I kept, I'd be retired! Oh well ...
I AGREE FULLY w/ Esquette according to my dd. She and her roomie went to the polling place ...and while they were educated about ramifications of being a minority wearing their Johnny McCain buttons ...they all went to lunch and Whit's with their Brobamified buddies. No harm, no foul.
Which IS very insightful and affirming of what most of us w/ some DU exposure seem to be suggesting ...the politics (and passion) are there ...but they don't get in the way of peace, love and harmony. It really is a fascinating dynamic.
But ...I understand what grin's observations might seem to portray. Like Esquette, while there seems to be very little presence here of DU cheerleader/parents, I consider myself a very careful, if not always clear observer of campuses. I'll not expand or explain that, but ...in that vein, I see DU as a real hidden gem, that is hidden in part for the very reason we're discussing this ...there seems to be a disproportionate degree of harmony as a campus community. Furthermore, I think some of this is engendered by a very mature, wise administration.
Now ...having said this, are there things I'd change if I had opportunity, resources, smarts? You bet. I'd quickly eliminate "naked" week. It's mostly a guy thing and many of them would better serve themselves retaining their stylish trousers, from what I've been told. Esquette's gorgeous and studly son would be one of those exceptions ...however he's also so doggone smart, handsome and self-confident, he has no need to drop trousers in order to gain attention. No need there, believe me.
I'd eliminate whatever "queer studies" is. At the same time, it may be one of those things that's somehow oddly "cool" or enlightened having on the books, I've not met any majors there yet. Nor any who felt compelled to be a star on "coming out" week. So, you surely grasp the idea I'm a non-PC, red-necked curmudgeonly dad ...who doesn't wish my daughter dating any among the above noted contituents. Still, it's fine that she does have some pals who see the world from a vastly different perspective.
And that's one of the real beauties of DU imo. Students of all shades, colors and creeds from literally every state and a whole bunch of places around the globe. But ...that doesn't translate into mass weird. It seems to be balanced.
btw, I wish they would take all their athletic endeavors in the same vein as lacrosse, swimming, tennis, women's hoops, etc. They've some world class programs ...and some world class flops, too. Like so many places, they seem willing to sustain athletic mediocrity when it is clearly evident that mediocrity is the best to be expected.
I LOVE the campus, the community, and the overall mix. I love the fact that they aggressively and unpopularly are working to change the past reputation of a party-hardy place ...and replace it with a real community (requiring living there) of bright kids from all over who have enormous potential for being and doing good ...and can spend 4 years together working hard, playing hard, growing up to be their best. I'm not sure that is 100% pervasive ...or even close...but I am very impressed that it seems that the powers that be are using the substantial resources of the University to address these and more. It's not a status-quo place, for sure.
WP, your generosity renders me speechless...almost
Again, I second WP's "on the money" assessments.
Didn't hear anything about Naked Week from my son, so I'm just going to assume he was at most a spectator .... As for his "PC studies" gen-ed requirement, he's going to fulfill that with a class he's taking in his study abroad program next fall -- now that ought to be eye-opening!
Once again, it seems, I'll come at this from the "other side". We live in a tiny very conservative town in a very red state. My husband and I were not born there but we've been there now for 25 years, so our kids are native, though 1st gen. We are all registered Dems and proud. We are also adding religious diversity to the community. The boys were both debaters and often took flack for holding their opinions though I don't think they ever lost any real friends over it. In many ways, being in the minority has made them stronger and made them really consider their own viewpoints.Don't get me wrong, in many ways it's been a great place to raise our kids but, one of the things my sons both looked for in a college was a place where diversity of opinions was accepted, nay even welcomed. Even though they wanted to be in places where liberal opinions were valued, neither one wanted a place where the left was so strong that it started becoming as oppressive as the far right. #1 son looked at Reed in OR and it was just such a place to that end as Wheaton, or Hillsdale are on the right. He's at Carleton. It's mostly liberal but students respect those who have differing views. IMO, part of college is learning to live with people who are different than you are. It makes you look at your opinions and values in new light. Often that does serve to strengthen them. I just asked #2 son, who is home on break if he felt that DU had that kind of vibe....he told me he doesn't think he'd be there if it didn't.