DukeRose4288

Duke doesn't keep track of demonstrated interest is because they don't want people who don't get a chance to come visit to be at a disadvantage.

Mondo

C'mon now! These people exist at Duke, but it is not exclusive to Duke!
I visited just about every Ivy League, there were people like that at all of these places.
Anywhere you have rich kids, you will have people with the "Duke Attitude".
I personally can't stand it and complain about it a lot but I know that I would have done so if I picked Dartmouth or Georgetown or Rice or Chicago or (my favorite option at the time).. just sneak into Brown.

eulalia

I didn't perceive that attitude at all when visiting Duke during BDD. In fact my regional admissions officer approached me (she had remembered me from an info session) and was really eager to talk to me about my goals at Duke and about one of my duke essays. I am definitely not in the top percentage of people that applied, but to me it seemed like faculty members were more than obliging when it came to answering questions and discussing just about anything.

As far as this statement goes : "The Duke info session presenter just basically said, "We don't keep track of whether you visit or if you call" and gave no explanation, the impression being that they don't do it because they assume everyone is drooling to get in to Duke so they don't have to bother. Again, "We don't care. We don't have to - we're Duke." "

The reason Duke doesn't keep track of visits is because its an unfair advantage to those who have the means to visit Duke. Not everyone has the resources to visit every school they're interested in, and so Duke doesn't think that demonstrated interest should be a factor.

I don't intend to sound offensive... but I think its possible that many people expect the "Duke attitude" and so every little impression is taken in that context, even if it wasn't intended that way.

DukeEgr93

I guess I am just not sure what you expected from a recruiting visit, then... I would imagine that the reason we are putting all of our best feet forward in a non-subtle way is we want to make sure people making the very important decision about where to attend college feel that we are letting them know, directly, what it is that sets us apart. And we have very little time to do it for the people who've given up some of their time to come visit.

I am sorry your family had such a negative experience. I can assure you that Dean Guttentag, his entire team, and the rest of us absolutely want every one of the students that are accepted to be a part of the family (and, in fact, a great many more that, for whatever reason, are not accepted but are still terrific people).

danielhstennis08

"We also didn't like being hit over the head repeatedly with all the things that are so great about Duke."

I didn't think duke did that at all... President Brodhead made an amazing speech about how a person accepted to Duke would do well anywhere... no one said that duke is better than any other school...

proudinnj

It is unfortunate that you left with this perception of Duke. I have quickly learned that there is a preconception about the school and as one poster said before, sometimes people look for affirmation of their dislike for Duke.

Our family had a very different experience. It all began when the admissions officer for our region recognized our sons by their last names and made a point of introducing herself and engaging them in a conversation both before and after the introductory session. It only got better as the day continued. But, we had been sold on Duke long before so our preconceptions were obviously quite different.

I personally recall sitting through a similar program at Princeton and having to listen to the admissions officer tell us how much better Princeton is than Yale and Harvard.

With regard to keeping a record of the number of times someone visits or contacts the school, our sons were told that Duke does not do this because the school recognizes the difficulty for many students to visit due to time, distance and cost. This is in striking contrast to some schools that informed my sons that level of interest is a factor and if they really wanted to attend, they would find a way to get there. Crossed that school off the list immediately.

As far as extolling all of the attributes of Duke and a Duke education, I must agree with Dr. G. I believe that is one of the objectives of a recruiting session. But again, if that is going to turn you against a school, there really isn't much Duke can do. It isn't very helpful to say, at least in my opinion, "just read the catalogue". I enjoyed the exuberance with which everyone spoke about the school and found that to be a constant at most schools we visited (other than Princeton).

But again, it is unfortunate that you and your family had this experience. I am certain your child will be happy wherever she goes.

bluedog

EVERYBODY (myself included) look for little things when making a college visit when really they demonstrate little to nothing about the university. So, the Johns Hopkins informational session speaker was more exciting than Columbia's? Does that mean Johns Hopkins is better? No. Does it make me like Johns Hopkins more? Yes. Is this really a good reason to like a school more? Not really.

First impressions matter greatly in the pyschology of choosing a college. In reality, it's impossible to get a good grasp of a university in a day. People's perceptions are shaped by chance - was the student who gave the tour nice and helpful? Was the weather nice the day you visited? Do you know a student who goes to the school? Did you stay with that friend who is a student and get to experience more (always a HUGE plus)?

I mean, I'm not saying there aren't things that can be gained from a day's visit (sorry for the double negative). I'm just saying that I think people sometimes put too much emphasis on things left to chance - especially when there's nothing else to go off of, what else are you supposed to base your decision on? It's perfectly reasonable and human nature, but when I look back on it....kinda stupid. The Hopkins guide was a snob to me....so what? That is not a large enough sample size to really show anything. Does this mean all Hopkins students are snobs? Probably not. I guess that is why schools put such an emphasis on the admissions staff/student tour guides. First impressions are key! (as they are in other facets of life).

My main point is that there's only so much you can gain from a single day visit and much of it is left up to chance and not really representative of the university. It's certainly possible you did run into snobby people with attitudes and you thereby extended this attitude to all Duke students. I'm sure you'll daughter will be happy wherever she ends up, though. Good luck!

Sorry for the rant. The psychology of people choosing colleges is quite interesting!

reverberating

going back to the original topic of this thread...

i too am questioning whether or not duke is worth the cost. i'm currently a student and paying full price because my family is upper middle class...but not rich enough to pay ~$200k out-of-pocket. therefore, i applied for a transfer to UVA back in march and recently found out that i am accepted and the cost would be minimal--miniscule in comparison to duke's hefty cost anyway. unfortunately, i am in love with duke and really don't want to transfer...to those with any experience with this, is it worth the debt to go to a top tier university especially when you're pre-med and love the school? or is it better to just go to the public university where the education is still good but you don't relaly like the school (as in my case)?

any help would be appreciated.

bluedolphin

After you've been a UM for a month, you won't even really remember that you wanted to go to Duke. The concept is simple: "If you can't be with the one you love, then love the one you're with."

schnork

It is unfortunate that several people now have perceptions of the Duke admissions committee as being elitist. That was never my perception during the admissions process. My admissions counselor covered several states and recruitment for Pratt and still was extremely helpful during the admissions process. She always promptly returned my many emails during the admissions process. She remembered me at a local information session after only a 30 second conversation while visiting Duke. I was, on the whole, very impressed with the Duke admissions experience. Their commitment to selecting individuals who are not only intelligent, but also service-minded and involved in their communities, sets Duke apart from its peer schools.

Duke, like any university, only has a given amount of resources it can dedicate to merit scholarships. It woos its top applicants with this money, as UMich woos its top applicants with their money. These top applicants are admittedly more heavily courted during the admissions process: They recieve free transportation to campus (Duke Up-close) and certainly recieve more attention. What, about this, doesn't make sense? If you weren't a top applicant at UMichigan, you would not have recieved the aid package you are discussing, and could then argue that UMichigan admissions were arrogant for not courting all applicants.

It's very difficult to be a top applicant at Duke, therefore, I'd like to see them dedicate more resources toward attracting all admitted students. This, however, would have to be a funding/trustees initiative, and does not come from the admissions office. Duke's current financial aid seems to be a fair assessment of a family's ability to pay. Duke's endowment has just increased signifcantly, and I would expect them to apportion even more funds to increase financial aid coverage, as they did this year.

I agree with one of the other posters that I think many people have an elitist perception of Duke, and thus, when they experience anything that could be contorted as being elitist, they like to label Duke with this label. I find it hard to believe that the Duke information session was anything different from that at many of the Ivy league schools. Actually, I am certain that it is not more elitist than that of Dartmouth, whose information session was arguably elitist by spending a disproportionate amount of time describing their "D-Plan" a schedule unique to Dartmouth. In my opinion, you could really say this about any university's adcom....Any school's adcom will sing the praises of its university: that, after all, is its purpose. What I would suggest is for you to evaluate the substance of a university, instead of a layer of perception based on mere presentation: What kind of academic experience would Duke provide? How would Duke prepare me for post-graduate opportunities in comparison to other universities? Can I see myself walking across the greens for four years? Deciding based on a "vibe" supported largely by a friend's perception, an adcom's understandable pride in its school and outdated anecdotal evidence seems to me to be not the best way to decide on a college.

As for the OP...I am truly sorry you're in this situation. I would certainly understand if you picked UMich, particularly if you think that it is a good fit. If you work hard and find small classes, you will have an equal academic experience and certainly will have no problem with post-grad job/grad schools.

FYI: I didn't get a good aid package at all from Duke. My family, however, just had unfortunate circumstances that increased our financial standing...therefore, our financial assessment was certainly understandable. College costs money, but I am confident that if I make the best out of my Duke education, I will not regret my decision to attend Duke. For those of you who do not have such a choice, I am truly sorry that money will influence your college choice, but if you work hard you will love your college experience and it won't matter where you graduated from.

K9Leader

Several have noted something like this: "The reason Duke doesn't keep track of visits is because its an unfair advantage to those who have the means to visit Duke. Not everyone has the resources to visit every school they're interested in, and so Duke doesn't think that demonstrated interest should be a factor."

Yes, I'm sure that is what they say, but I don't believe it. It is simply not credible. Marketing is getting your product noticed by the target market. You can't do that if you don't know who that is, so keeping track of interest is a good idea. And this is the first instance I've found of a school that doesn't keep track. If Duke were really that concerned about unfair advantages for those who have means, it wouldn't charge $200,000 for four years. Duke doesn't keep track because it doesn't have to. If, for some reason, all those tens of thousands of applicants every year dropped by 10 - 20% or the yield rate suddenly dropped, Duke would decide to start keeping track of interest.

Also, this: "As far as extolling all of the attributes of Duke and a Duke education, I must agree with Dr. G. I believe that is one of the objectives of a recruiting session."

There is a difference between "extolling the attributes" and overbearing and excessive boasting. We have not come away from any of the other 20+ schools we have visited in the past three years with this feeling.

Note: Boasting (Webster's): To vaunt one's self; to brag; to say or tell things which are intended to give others a high opinion of one's self or of things belonging to one's self; as, to boast of one's exploits courage, descent, wealth.

Reverberating: It's a no-brainer. Miniscule cost for UVa vs. $200,000 for Duke? Go 'Hoos!

-K9Leader

DukeEgr93

K9 - I wish you all the best for you and your family. But you have now questioned the integrity of *my* family, so please understand if I accept the word of those with whom I have worked for 20 years and the experience I have gained teaching here and as a part of the recruitment process over your perceptions.

eulalia

K9leader...your opposition to Duke seems somewhat unjustified and even a touch biased.

There is a large amount of private institutions that have tuition fees that add up to 200 grand over 4 yrs, this isn't just practiced by Duke. Luckily theres this thing called financial aid. Though not everyone may qualify for it, but there are many that do.

I also don't understand why you think Duke is being duplicitous in its failure to recognize demonstrated interest, nor do I get why it's a good idea. Personally, I really wanted to attend Duke but there was no way with my parents working full time that I would get the chance to visit. I don't think something like that should have been held against me.

I also don't get the whole boasting comment. President Brodhead made it clear in his statement that though he wishes the students accept their spot at Duke, they would succeed regardless of where they attend. This attitude was reflected by many other faculty members as well. To me it didn't seem like they wanted to flaunt Duke; it seemed more like they were eager to share their passion for their school, which isn't a bad thing at all.

You say that none of the other 20+ schools were like this, but to be honest..I'm convinced that you were looking to confirm prior misconceptions about Duke. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion and I just hope people reading these posts don't take everything as facts and instead explore schools on their own before making judgments.

incollege88

I think it is great that Duke doesn't keep track of demonstrated interest. It represents an effort on the part of the admissions office to be more meritocratic and not practice yield-sensitive admissions policies (e.g., Emory, Wash U.).

K9Leader

I am sorry that it came across as questioning the integrity of your institution. I did not mean to imply willful misrepresentation. I see it more as a rationalization Duke has made both to itself and to others. Tracking interest is another step in a complicated and costly process, so, in light of the very high demand for Duke's product, it is not unlikely that the policy makers would lean toward not doing it. The question was probably asked "what are the pros and cons of not having a policy of tracking interest?" I'm sure that not making the cost of an in-person visit be a barrier to an applicant was one of the pros on the list. I do not believe it was the only one, or even the primary one. But it is the one that can most easily be put forward as the reason both to others and to yourself, a rationalization. Rationalization is one of the ways human beings cope with the complexities of our lives and our natures. Remember the scene in The Big Chill when someone commented on a rationalization someone had made (probably the Kevin Costner character whose suicide was what had brought them all back together)? One of the characters said something about being totally honest and never rationalizing. The Jeff Goldblum character, the sort-of sleazy tabloid writer, said that we need rationalizations to get through life and that they are more important even than sex. Someone else challenged that, and the Goldblum character responded with, "Have you ever gone a week without a rationalization?"

The former was in response to my comments about the no-tracking interest policy. And the latter was in response to my (admittedly snarky) comment that "if Duke were really that concerned about unfair advantages for those who have means, it wouldn't charge $200,000 for four years."

Yes, there are a lot of schools that are very costly, but that wasn't the point. The point was that it is inconsistent to charge that much yet point to a policy that you would be inclined to follow anyway as demonstrating your concern that applicants of means have an unfair advantage. Being "of means" is an advantage in everything in life. The more costly something is, the greater the advantage. So, to really make a difference, figure out how to make your product more affordable. And, Duke does that through various forms of aid, and, I would hope, through following the lead of the Ivies in using more of its endowment to make the product more affordable.

Maybe I had some bias prior to the visit, maybe not. But my family had a negative impression after our visit and I commented on that. It is very tempting to charge anyone who disagrees with you or criticizes you of being biased against you. I teach 5th grade - 5th graders pretty much spend all their time looking for slights for which they can then loudly proclaim "That's not fair!" It does not further the discussion, and, instead polarizes all the parties. Pretty much what our political system had become.

I would suggest you examine your own preconceived notions and biases. You "really wanted to attend Duke" but had never visited it, had never seen it, and based your great desire on what? Reputation, prestige factor, rankings, it often goes to the Final Four? Even if you based it on factors such as quality of education, quality of the major in which you were interested, size of the school, location, institutional mission, campus setting, or personal "fit," how would you know for sure unless you had spent some time there? For a decision this significant and this costly, I cannot imagine making a reasoned, unbiased decision without gathering firsthand data. To make that decision without gathering firsthand data indicates a decision based on preconceived ideas. (With most prospective students, the problem is that they have negative preconceived notions so don't want to visit certain schools. My daughter, with no more information than you had that convinced you Duke was the one for you, refuses to even look at a number of really great schools. However, my daughter did want to visit Duke and was expecting to like it, as her journalism teacher, whom she adores and worships, is a Duke graduate, so I don't think she had negative preconceived notions about Duke.)

I would also point out that a personal visit is not the only thing that could be used to indicate interest. Phone calls, e-mails, visits with reps at college fairs or HS visits could and should count as demonstrating interest. And, those would be available to everybody, regardless of means.

I also take exception with your assertion that "there was no way with my parents working full time that I would get the chance to visit." My wife and I work full-time and we managed to visit 14 or 15 schools when my son was looking and have done eight or nine with my daughter with several more to go over the summer and fall. And thousands upon thousands of other families who have working parents manage to do it. Our spring break road trip was six schools in three states over six days and 2,000 miles and virtually every other HS junior in the Mid-Atlantic and South was right there with us. The reality is that people do pretty much what they want to do and don't do what they don't want to do. If both parents can't go, then only one goes. (We've done this.) Or you tag along with a friend's family when they go. (We've taken our daughter's friends with us on a couple of visits and she's gone along with others on visits.) Or you get grandma and/or grandpa to go with you (Our son had a scholarship weekend to go to when his mother and I just could not go, so one set of grandparents drove him up and the other set brought him home.) Or you find another way -- you are smart and creative and innovative enough to get accepted at Duke, you could have done it.

Also, don't fall into that "I/we/they work full-time" as an excuse. Most of us work full-time. My wife and I have been, or currently are, Boy Scout and Girl Scout leaders, T-ball and soccer coaches, PTA president, treasurer, and newsletter editor, charity auction chair, sunday school teacher, swim team volunteer coordinator, dog club rescue coordinator, church youth group advisor, and have heard countless times when we ask a parent to help out with one little thing, to give up one evening or Saturday morning, "Oh, I can't help -- I work." They say this with a straight face, oblivious that all the people around them who are providing their child with a valuable experience by donating hours and hours of their time also work.

Look, I didn't mean to get into a p*****g match. I presented the perceptions I had from a visit to a school, perceptions that I have found shared by others on this website and others that I have spoken to personally (my daughter's journalism teacher, a Duke graduate who was pleased when my daughter was going to visit, acknowledged after our visit when she heard our take on it that yes, that attitude is there, and it is a shame that it sometimes clouds all the good things that Duke has to offer.). And, it is natural to get your hackles up when someone is critical of something you are involved in, something that is your home, your family.

You in the Duke community can shout it down as the rantings of someone who's "mean and unfair" or you can do a little self-reflection and ask why anyone would perceive Duke in this way and what can Duke do either to fix the flaws that resulted in this or to present itself in a way that disabuses people of these notions.

Now, to paraphrase Chief Joseph: "Of Duke, I will speak no more forever."

--K9Leader