ucbalumnus

Precalculus as a junior is already a year ahead in math, so she is likely one of the better students in math (it is almost a given that such students will score >600 on the SAT math unless they take it before completing algebra and geometry in high school). Assuming she does well in precalculus this year and calculus next year, she should be fine as far as math goes for engineering, unless the high school's math is really deficient*.

If test taking skills are possibly the problem, she may want to practice those (e.g. how to guess, do the easy problems within a section first and come back to them, etc.).

*If this is true, then SAT math and AP calculus scores likely are low overall at the school, and/or recent alumni are being placed in remedial math at their colleges.

eyemgh

She may not seem in your eyes to be taking advanced math classes, but she's basically right on schedule, taking Calculus her senior year. Only the accelerated students are more advanced. Most bail into finite math and statistics. She won't skip any undergraduate math as an engineer, but she will not be behind.

In the end, she's right, those tests are stupid. It's a great life lesson though. Sometimes we have to endure the stupid and mundane things as sort of a litmus test to move forward.

Good luck!

happyORmom

I checked her scores for PSAT, she actually got lower score for math - 78 percentile and 94 percentile for CR and W sections. I hope she realizes the importance of practicing to avoid the silly mistakes.

@eyemgh, thank you. Your comments made me feel a lot better. As a typical mom, I will continue to remind her that she needs to practice but leave it to her. In the end it is her decision.

@ucbalumnus, I think she is making a lot of silly mistakes and/or spending a lot of time on some of the problems and running out of time at the end.

Any suggestions for avoiding silly mistakes? I think practice should help with that, but am wondering if there are any sites that make the practice a bit more fun.

spectrum2

I think for a kid that gets math it is easier to bring these scores up than reading scores. Someone on CC suggested this to me and I will pass it on to you. If she can set a target to practice 30 minutes a day more or less it could help a lot. Then maybe some practice sections timed. Some of the practice can be reviewing and gaining understanding of mistakes. My S's math SAT scores increased 140 points (600 to 740) by just doing this. He proably studied 30/day about 3 days a week for about a month. The improvement amazed me.

ucbalumnus

Practice with old real SATs under test conditions. But she should note which answers she was not confident on, or which took her a long time, and spend extra time reviewing the problem afterward (whether or not she got it correct). Also, the after-test review should include trying any that were left blank due to running out of time.

Some problems are more easily solved by plugging in the answers to the question rather than solving it the usual way. If a question takes too long to handle, skip it, and come back to it if there is time left for this section.

It has been found that girls guess less often than boys do. She should be aware that guessing has a positive expected value if she can eliminate just one answer as certainly incorrect, and the same expected value as leaving the question blank if the guess is purely random.

eyemgh

Also knowing that questions flow from easier to more difficult and all have the same value is important. It is natural to grind on the tough questions, but it's way more important to get all of the easy and medium difficulty questions first. Kids who are resistant to studying don't want to just memorize worthless factoids. I think though you are gathering from this feedback that it is about strategy. View it as a game rather than an IQ test and the process is both more fun and likely to result in a better score.

AjaxontheTrack

Also remember that some people do much better on ACT vs SAT or vice versa. I only scored a 630 on SAT Math, but scored a 32 on ACT Math (which is the SAT equivalent of a 740). I do wonder if one test is a better predictor than the other for engineering... maybe I should still be worried about my low SAT score?

1214mom

I have heard from multiple sources that many of the highly regarded engineering programs look for at least 700 on the math SAT.
I too have kids who don't believe in studying for standardized tests, but if she really wants to going into engineering, she does need to get her math score up. Just 1 data point - my son did not do nearly as well on the SAT math portion as on the SAT 2 or ACT math portion, so I do suggest she take both, especially if she doesn't break 70 on the SAT.

happyORmom

I am hoping that 30mins a couple of days each week should help her. Thanks for the suggestion. I looked into what she missed and most were silly mistakes or not realizing what the question was actually asking for.

fractalmstr

I think the '#2-pencil-only' syndrome is what prevents most students from scoring well on the SAT's and ACT's, not the material difficulty itself - which most people agree is very simple.

Test anxiety, as it pertains to timed tests, is a very real problem for a lot of people. These tests are highly stressful in the sense that your entire future can be decided based on the outcome, and for some people, that stress is overbearing. Therefore, how a person copes with this stress is ultimately what determines his/her scores. That being said, I believe SAT/ACT scores are a better indicator of a students ability to think and perform under pressure, rather than a test of intelligence or aptitude.

With practice, self-discipline, and the right mindset, anyone with a normal functioning brain can do well on these tests. They really aren't that bad.

EarthPig

@HappyORMom: Since when did the 78th or 80th percentile become unimpressive? Last time I looked, the average for college-bound students was the 50th percentile.

The world isn't Lake Woebegone, where all children are above average. It certainly isn't one where anyone in the bottom 80% of college-bound students is below average.

boneh3ad

The average for college-bound students is NOT the 50th percentile unless you think everyone who takes the test goes to college. I don't know what average for college-bound students actually is, but is imagine it is closer to mid- to upper-60s.

happyORmom

@EarthPig, She is passionate about engineering, so I was comparing what's required ( at least what I am guessing from reading the posts and looking at a few college websites) for Engineering majors and the 78/80 percentile is on the lower side.

This makes me wonder, if there is a thread that lists the SAT/ACT scores for engineering colleges.

fractalmstr

Try a google search for "SCHOOL_NAME_HERE sat".

Within the first five or so results you will usually see an 'about.com' or 'collegeboard' site. Either of these two are good for quick reference. You'll want to look at the SAT 25th and 75th percentile scores, and maybe even the ACT math or composite scores.

EarthPig

@happyORmom: The SAT score can be significant or insignificant in the admissions process, depending on the school.

Most colleges keep saying that the number one criterion for admission is a strong academic record (transcript). SAT’s certainly become significant at the elite schools, and many state schools use a combination of SAT scores and GPA as the prime determinants for admissions. The upper end private schools look at applications holistically, and Lafayette told me that they don’t distinguish between engineering applicants and non-engineering applicants at all, since this year’s engineering major so often becomes next year’s English major.

70% of Princeton graduates do not graduate with the major they started out in. Your daughter could easily change her mind regarding what she wants to study for any of a thousand reasons.

Most of the research on the SAT has indicated that the test is only a good predictor of freshman grades. The University of Oregon study mentioned above is one in the mix that does contradict that.

Union College (NY), which has a very good, but small engineering school, did a study that showed no correlation at all between SAT scores and performance at the school. No SAT or ACT score? No problem

Regarding studying for the test: the research I’ve seen shows that the biggest increase in test scores takes place from the first 5 or 6 hours of study time. That means that getting used to taking the test seems to be the most productive use of her time. For what it’s worth, I never studied for the SAT (no one did 35 years ago), and my SAT verbal score was 150 points than my PSAT score, and my math score was 120 points higher. I did take the SAT three times, which probably indicates that I got more accustomed to taking the test (the first two tests were the equivalent of 6 hours of practice time).

You probably can’t force your daughter to study for the exam, or choose her college for her. You can tell her that a lower SAT score may limit her college choices, and may make college cost her more. I think she’ll do better (and like I said, her math score is already good, and her other scores are very good) when she takes the SAT again, just because she has taken more math since the PSAT. And if she’s a lousy test taker with a strong transcript, there are many, many solid schools that will accept her even if she has a math SAT of “only” 620 (78th percentile).

As parents, we have to walk a fine line. I just saw something posted on another college’s board where some kid was freaking out – waking up in the middle of the night in a panic – because she thought her essays weren’t good enough, and then other kids said they were undergoing the same thing. That kind of pressure isn’t healthy for a teenager.

We all have to realize that there are countless very successful graduates of “third rate” engineering schools. I’ve interviewed many graduates of these schools who oversee staffs of 500 or 1000 employees.