sang54

How come CS isn't considered an engineering discipline?

Citan

sang54: it probably is...in my school (UCLA) and many others CS falls directly under the college of engineering and is often paired with EE.

Bait&Switch

"Berkeley's overall peer assessment beats Caltech's by an even greater margin than the engineering ranking, but Caltech has always ranked above Berkeley overall. The USNWR engineering ranking uses a methodology very favorable to Berkeley. It doesn't mean Berkeley engineering is better."


Yeah but isn't this kind of an "in the eye of the beholder" type-thing? I mean, that is why rankings carry weight- there isn't really a way to measure, say, the teaching ability/quality of a specific faculty or how much the average student will really learn at _____ program. The only way to really do this would be if the same individual could experience each school's engineering curriculum simultaneously and judge which program he or she felt had best taught and prepared him or her - and obviously this is impossible.

But even THIS method would be biased because the "quality" of a school (or anything really, for that matter) is generally something that is pretty subjective (i.e. different learning styles and systems will work better for different students). Relatively speaking then, if Berkeley tends to be more universally well regarded, than I think that it's fair to call it the "better" school. If everyone thinks you're a criminal- then you're a criminal. Even if you aren't. (Translation: since quality is subjective, and subjective opinion holds that Berkeley is a better engineering school, then it is. Even if it's not.)

sakky

I would say that Berkeley is probably a 'better' engineering school than is Caltech, under the myriad ways that you could define 'better'. For example, Berkeley probably has better ties to engineering employers, has more extensive engineering resources, and has a stronger engineering brand name. These all connote to its being 'better' from an engineering standpoint.

But that's not to say that that necessarily makes Berkeley a better school to attend for engineering. Berkeley may be a better school to graduate from but not necessarily to actually attend. There's a subtle difference there. Like I said before, the major problem with Berkeley engineering (and other engineering programs, but not Caltech's) is that you can't freely change engineering majors. You can't just come in as, say, a ME student and then simply decide that you'd rather switch over to EECS. It's not that simple. You have to approved to switch over, and that is far from automatic. Plenty of people don't get approved and are therefore stuck in majors that they don't want.

So, sure, I agree, if you come into Berkeley as an ME student, and you never want to change, then you're probably better off than if you had gone to Caltech. But what if you do want to change? In particular, what if you want to change and are denied?

Bait&Switch

Hey sakky- great points, and something to keep in mind for any potential engineering student.

Which begs the idiot's query: what other prominent universities are going to have impacted majors? I'm assuming that this problematic pattern would lend itself to the public schools - and thus places like Michigan, UVA, Cal, Chapel Hill, Texas, UCLA, etc. are all going to suffer from this malady. But does this umbrella cover ALL of the public schools, or just those with stronger programs? Are any private universities affected?

blondie625

So, there are no CS rankings then? That's sad : (

sakky

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it would include ALL of the public schools. After all, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of public schools out there. I'm quite sure that among that set, there has to be some that don't have issues with impaction.

To some extent, yes. For example, I know that Cornell does not allow free movement between individual colleges/schools. For example, you can't get into the Cornell Arts & Sciences College and then just decide one fine day that you're going to switch to the Cornell College of Engineering. You have to apply to transfer between colleges, and the approval process is competitive.

Nevertheless, I think Berkeley is a quite extreme case as not only does it restrict movement between college to college, but, in the case of engineering, Berkeley also restricts movement from major to major. Other schools may restrict movement into their engineering college, but once you're into the engineering college, they usually won't restrict switching from one engineering major to another.

The takehome point is that people should carefully investigate just how much flexibility you will have at any particular college. You don't want to end up in a situation where you may be forced to stay in a major that you don't want. Or at least, if that might happen, then you should know that that might happen and then plan accordingly.

Bait&Switch

Yeah I didn't assume it would affect all publics nationwide- just the ones with top-flight engineering schools (although I guess I included a few schools in my quick list that don't match that criteria, i.e. UNC).

Father of the Boarder

Smaller Schools should be acknowledged as well.

Here are USNWR list for those schools where no graduate (or minimal graduate) program exists:

Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Rank/School Peer
assessment
score
( 5.0 = highest)
1. Harvey Mudd College (CA) 4.5
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN) 4.5
3. Cooper Union (NY) 4.2
4. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo * 4.0
5. United States Military Academy (NY)* 3.9
5. United States Naval Academy (MD)* 3.9
7. Bucknell University (PA) 3.8
7. United States Air Force Acad. (CO)* 3.8
9. Embry Riddle Aeronautical U. (FL) 3.6
9. Villanova University (PA) 3.6
11. Kettering University (MI) 3.4
11. Lafayette College (PA) 3.4
11. Milwaukee School of Engineering 3.4
11. Swarthmore College (PA) 3.4
11. United States Coast Guard Acad. (CT)* 3.4
16. Calif. State Poly. Univ.–Pomona * 3.3
16. Rowan University (NJ)* 3.3
16. San Jose State University (CA)* 3.3
16. Union College (NY) 3.3
20. Baylor University (TX) 3.2
20. Bradley University (IL) 3.2
20. Embry Riddle Aeronautical U.–Prescott (AZ) 3.2
20. Santa Clara University (CA) 3.2
20. Valparaiso University (IN) 3.2
25. Gonzaga University (WA) 3.1
25. Loyola Marymount University (CA) 3.1
25. Smith College (MA) 3.1
25. Univ. of Colo.–Colorado Springs * 3.1
25. University of San Diego 3.1
25. Virginia Military Institute * 3.1
31. California State U.–Los Angeles * 3.0
31. St. Louis University 3.0
31. Trinity University (TX) 3.0
31. U.S. Merchant Marine Acad. (NY)* 3.0
31. University of Michigan–Dearborn * 3.0
31. University of Portland (OR) 3.0
31. Webb Institute (NY) 3.0
38. Boise State University (ID)* 2.9
38. California State U.–Northridge * 2.9
38. The Citadel (SC)* 2.9
38. Manhattan College (NY) 2.9
38. Mercer University (GA) 2.9
38. Miami University–Oxford (OH)* 2.9
38. Northern Arizona University * 2.9
38. University of Detroit Mercy 2.9
38. University of Minnesota–Duluth * 2.9
47. California State U.–Long Beach * 2.8
47. California State U.–Sacramento * 2.8
47. Calvin College (MI) 2.8
47. Indiana U.-Purdue U.–Fort Wayne * 2.8
47. Ohio Northern University 2.8
47. Penn State–Erie, Behrend Col. * 2.8
47. Purdue University–Calumet (IN)* 2.8
47. Seattle University 2.8
47. Trinity College (CT) 2.8
47. University of St. Thomas (MN) 2.8
57. Cedarville University (OH) 2.7
57. Hofstra University (NY) 2.7
57. Oregon Inst. of Technology * 2.7
57. Texas Christian University 2.7
57. Univ. of Arkansas–Little Rock * 2.7
57. Univ. of Massachusetts–Dartmouth * 2.7
57. University of the Pacific (CA) 2.7
57. Univ. of Wisconsin–Platteville * 2.7
65. California Maritime Academy * 2.6
65. California State U.–Fullerton * 2.6
65. College of New Jersey * 2.6
65. Colorado State University–Pueblo * 2.6
65. Fairleigh Dickinson Univ. (NJ) 2.6
65. Grove City College (PA) 2.6
65. Hampton University (VA) 2.6
65. LeTourneau University (TX) 2.6
65. Minnesota State University–Mankato * 2.6
65. New York Inst. of Technology 2.6
65. Northern Illinois University * 2.6
65. Norwich University (VT) 2.6
65. Pennsylvannia State U.–Harrisburg * 2.6
65. Roger Williams University (RI) 2.6
65. St. Cloud State University (MN)* 2.6
65. Tuskegee University (AL) 2.6
65. University of Alaska–Anchorage * 2.6
65. University of Hartford (CT) 2.6
65. Western New England College (MA) 2.6
65. West Virginia U. Inst. of Tech. * 2.6
65. Widener University (PA) 2.6
65. Youngstown State University (OH)* 2.6
87. California State Univ.–Chico * 2.5
87. Fairfield University (CT) 2.5
87. Grand Valley State University (MI)* 2.5
87. Humboldt State University (CA)* 2.5
87. Maine Maritime Academy * 2.5
87. Monmouth University (NJ) 2.5
87. North Carolina A&T State Univ. * 2.5
87. SUNY–Maritime College * 2.5
87. Tri-State University (IN) 2.5
87. Univ. of Missouri–St. Louis * 2.5
87. University of North Florida * 2.5
87. Univ. of Tennessee–Chattanooga * 2.5
87. University of Wisconsin–Stout * 2.5
87. Wentworth Inst. of Technology (MA) 2.5


Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Chemical
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Methodology
1 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2 Rowan University (NJ)*
3 Cooper Union (NY)
4 Bucknell University (PA)
5 University of Minnesota–Duluth *
6 Manhattan College (NY)

Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Civil
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Methodology
1 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2 United States Military Academy (NY)*
3 Bucknell University (PA)
4 Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo *
5 Cooper Union (NY)
5 Harvey Mudd College (CA)
7 Bradley University (IL)
7 Lafayette College (PA)
7 United States Air Force Acad. (CO)*
7 Virginia Military Institute *
11 Manhattan College (NY)
11 Rowan University (NJ)*
11 The Citadel (SC)*

Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Computer Engineering
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Methodology
1 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2 Harvey Mudd College (CA)
3 Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo *
4 Cooper Union (NY)
5 San Jose State University (CA)*
6 Bucknell University (PA)
6 Valparaiso University (IN)

Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Electrical / Electronic / Communications
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Methodology
1 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2 Cooper Union (NY)
3 Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo *
3 Harvey Mudd College (CA)
5 United States Naval Academy (MD)*
6 Bucknell University (PA)
7 United States Military Academy (NY)*
8 Rowan University (NJ)*
8 United States Air Force Acad. (CO)*
10 San Jose State University (CA)*
11 Bradley University (IL)
11 Union College (NY)
11 Valparaiso University (IN)
14 Gonzaga University (WA)
14 Lafayette College (PA)
14 Manhattan College (NY)

Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Mechanical
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
Methodology
1 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2 Cooper Union (NY)
3 Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo *
3 Kettering University (MI)
5 Bucknell University (PA)
6 Harvey Mudd College (CA)
7 United States Military Academy (NY)*
8 United States Naval Academy (MD)*
9 Rowan University (NJ)*
10 Bradley University (IL)
11 Lafayette College (PA)
11 Manhattan College (NY)
13 Gonzaga University (WA)
13 Swarthmore College (PA)

jgoebel

cheezwhiz, Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology is at the top of that list, but I haven't been able to locate the entire thing ...

tahncol86

thx for the post!!!

adso

Thanks a LOT Kharatos!

I never knew Purdue was so good.

Megaaadi

THANKS Father of the Boarder THAT LIST WAS REALLY USEFUL

Megaaadi

BTW what is peer assessment????????????? does anyone know?

aibarr

Deloar just posted this on the "Elitism within CC, US News" thread. I think everyone should read it.

In January 1997, then-president of Alma College, Alan Stone, asked 480 colleges to boycott the U.S. News and World Report Rankings due to the peer assessment survey which counts for 25% of a college's ranking. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, in 1996, Alma College surveyed 158 colleges about the rankings. The result of the survey indicated that "84 per cent of the respondents admitted that they were unfamiliar with some of the institutions they had been asked to rank. Almost 44 per cent indicated that they 'tended to leave responses for unfamiliar schools blank.' " Stone stated, "this makes me wonder just how many votes are being considered for each school's academic-reputation ranking."
from # ^ "Alma College's President Urges Boycott of "U.S. News" Rankings", Chronicle of Higher Education, 1997-01-31. Retrieved on 2007-06-22. http://snipurl.com/1z7hs
# ^ "Alma College's President Urges Boycott of "U.S. News" Rankings", Rice University, 1997-01-31. Retrieved on 2007-06-22. http://snipurl.com/1z7ho

In other words, peer assessment means that people in academia are asked what they think of school X. Imagine you're a peer assessor, who is, for example, a chemistry professor who's on the admissions committee at Princeton. Someone asks you what you think of Harvard. You say Harvard's very good. Someone asks you what you think of Flagler College. You leave it blank.

Now, maybe Flagler is the greatest college in the world for underwater basketweaving, but the peer assessor is never going to know that, unfortunately. These peer assessors don't know everything... Nobody can. So with rankings, the rich keep getting richer (everyone knows that HYPSM rock and the majority are going to say so, unless they're argumentative) and the poor keep getting poorer ("You go to Rider? That's nice! Where's that?").

So delve a little deeper. Use rankings as a starting point, but don't put so much stock in them. You may find your dream college in a corner of the country that's been unexplored by chemistry professors from Princeton.