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Old 03-08-2012, 12:54 PM   #151
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TV: My mistake. The age is 21/22 not 22/23. The reason for the two numbers is because some kids need 5 years to finish their undergrad degree, like many engineering majors, which contain 5 year programs. In any case, its sad to me to see any parent, be it the mother or father, think for even one second that their parenting duties are over at a certain age. Thats such an old fashion way of thinking. But apparently, in this world many think like you and thats the reason we have so many kids floundering. Sorry but the fact is that as a parent your job never ends!!!! I was a fairly independent young adult. I paid for most of my college expenses and when I got out of school, I wanted to get my own apartment. My parents really wanted me to live home, but once I made it clear that I wanted to spread my wings and be on my own, they supported me. They came with me to look for apartments and 'yes' financially even helped me by buying me a full sized mattress and boxspring, a microwave oven and lots of other little essentials that I needed. Because of their love and support I knew this new venture in my life was going to be great!!! Did I ask them to pay my rent? Absolutely not, but I knew that if something happened they would be there for me.

Thats what good parents do. They support their kids all the way, all the time, any way they can. My husbands parents are the same way. Consequently, between the two families there are 8 children who have had 17 kids. Everyone is doing very well. Why? Because they have all been brought up by supportive, loving families. Families who try 'what ever they can' to help when times are tough!!!!!!

Honestly, its sad to hear you speak of your own son as a slouch.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:22 PM   #152
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"Honestly, its sad to hear you speak of your own son as a slouch."

I agree, but the truth it the truth and he readily admits it. We are hoping that is the start of a maturation process (sort of like the first step in a 12 step program is admitting you have a problem).

I also agree with you are the role of parents. My parents were like that and we are like that (if you only knew). But that isn't something you can legislate.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #153
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"TV: My mistake. The age is 21/22 not 22/23. The reason for the two numbers is because some kids need 5 years to finish their undergrad degree, like many engineering majors, which contain 5 year programs."

OK. so, is it 21 or 22? I gather you are saying it isn't a set age, but until they are done with school. If so, how about a kid that works for a couple of years and matures enough to go to school. Should a parent be required at age 26 to pay for their college until they are done with their degree? You still need a cutoff somewhere.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:48 PM   #154
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TV: ^^ Yes, the courts can take into account if the degree will take 4 or 5 years and many times they will still cut the support after the 4 year. Again thats to be determined by the judge. With regard to your other scenario. After the age of 21 the courts cut off support. Like you have mentioned there just comes a time when the kids do have to take control of their own life and be responsible for it. So the courts do have a cutoff. Otherwise, we would all be discussing child support for a masters degree, PhD and/or med school. The whole idea is to make sure that kids are given a fair shake. That they are given the opportunity to make something of themselves, if they show the desire and have the ability. Like I mentioned already, when my sister went to court, she had to prove that this child was worthy of this type of education. She had to submt test scores, transcripts etc... It was by no means a given.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:49 PM   #155
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but other states, thankfully, dont want to dump college costs on taxpayers just becuase parents get divorced.

==============

Very true....which is why FAFSA should include BOTH bio parents. When you don't, you are often dumping some costs onto tax-payers.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:29 PM   #156
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mom: I'm confused. Is that what happens? In the case of divorced, separated, and or never married situations they only look at the custodial parents finances? Only the custodial parents completes the fafsa?
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:56 PM   #157
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Yes, with divorced or never married, FAFSA looks only to the custodial parents. Only if NCP contributes funds, will that be reflected. I think that is wrong, but the flip side is state law should have a mechanism for judges to mandate college fees.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:46 PM   #158
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Dungaree....

Yes....FAFSA doesn't include the NCP info. That's why you'll see threads where people will suggest getting a "fake divorce" so that only the mom's low income will count on FAFSA and the kid will then qualify for Pell and other gov't aid.

In Calif it really is an issue because for the UC schools there is a Blue and Gold promise that gives "free tuition" (about $13k) to families that earn under $80k....so those who are living with mom who earns $75k per year, they get free tuition.....even if dad is some affluent business person who is involved with his kids.

The intact family that earns $85k per year won't qualify!
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:38 PM   #159
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Mom2, in NY, there is the TAP program that kicks in up to (I think) about 5K with income in that range also. Not as generous, but still something

I don't begrudge paying taxes to support kids from families who can't pay, I resent paying for kids from families who won't pay.

The difference is that NY courts can and will mandate NCPs to pay for college (or part), and those amounts (contributions from NCP) do reduce aid.
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:46 PM   #160
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I wish more states would require NCPs to pay at least something...even if it's half of the costs of a state school.....especially if they have professional jobs and/or are college grads.

Calif is ridiculous because divorced families do "play games" with custody so that the lower income parent claims custody (in Calif...shared custody is common, so the lower income parent will claim on FAFSA by claiming that the kid is there "more"....and no one checks....that's why it's easy to abuse.)

I do think that if child support is paid and/or the NCP is involved with the child, then absolutely the NCP's income should be considered. I can understand needing waivers for the NCPs that "hit the road" and never looked back....but when there are involved NCPs, excluding their income is just crazy.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:35 PM   #161
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Thanks everyone. That is very interesting and I agree that its very unfair how its handled in California. Of course, TV4caster won't be happy but yes I agree that the NCP should be made to fork up his/her portion of money for college. Whether they like it or not!!! Shouldn't fall on the taxpayers to educate a child that has parents more than able to do so themselves.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:53 AM   #162
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TV, if your reasoning is consistent, then I suspect you also believe that 18 year olds should not now be allowed to remain on their parents health insurance plans because they are adults?
Just curious. I think defining adulthood is an interesting legal challenge that today is fraught with inconsistencies.

In my case, I actually did have language in my divorce that specified post-secondary education costs would be shared equally, and that child support would continue "either" until the child was 18, or completed and undergrad degree in the customary amount of time, and I do agree that such language should be there. (it does not seem common here; my divorce was in another country.) I also did not collect alimony, so that did not play in.

So in actual fact, I could have won a court order. I did not pusue it because I did not need to and my general feeling is not unlike yours in that my preference is not to legally compel someone to do something that they are choosing to believe they cannot do, particularly where others are free to choose not to

That scenario notwithstanding, there are two very practical ways this country could prevent the common exploitation of at least the aid that comes from public money, and the known tendency of divorced parents to abdicate the responsibility of reasonable assistance for undergrad.

The first would be a simple change to FAFSA that required the NCP to co-submit -- defined by whether or not there existed a prior legal custody agreement. The second would be a contribution scale with a baseline of state universities that includes the variable of student accomplishment (eg hs gpa of 3.2 or some such). The third would be a legal mechanism to collect said contribution not unlike child support.

It would be pretty simple to devise the regulatory part of it -- eg. Only in play with continuing to post-secondary school within one year, and to end after four. Enforcement of the regulations might pose more of a challenge.

I have a second dog in this race in that like Starbucks, I was once a child from a second middle class family with "new" children where none would pay for school even though I
was a gifted kid who got into a prestigious talent-based program. I could not get aid due to my family's income. I saved a lot, and worked a lot. At one point I dropped out, but
"returned" as an adult. I have no regrets, and am evidence that it's possible to be unstoppable. I was in my 30s when my aggregated student loans were finally retired (and only then through the proceeds of the sale of a house.)

But college costs today are of an order quite different than in 1984 and I think it would be reasonable to protect public dollars for the most-needy by cleaning up a few legal definitions around age.
If a kid can drink at 21, then in theory FAFSAs definition on indpendent should likely be 21, not 24. If a kid can be legally an adult but not drink at 18, then maybe their status as a dependent for education purposes should rightly extend to 21. It might be a truer reflection of how things actually are.

None of the foregoing, however, is meant to suggest that I think it's ok to compel families to pay for private education except by negotiated agreement according to their means.

But I do think clarifying parental responsibility by law with respect to continued education would benefit both bright children and taxpayers and net more efficient use of public funds -- the same way child support laws were meant to reduce the burden of assistive social services.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:32 AM   #163
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But I do think clarifying parental responsibility by law with respect to continued education would benefit both bright children and taxpayers and net more efficient use of public funds -- the same way child support laws were meant to reduce the burden of assistive social services.

---------------------------------------------
Exactly!
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:39 PM   #164
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KMC said " I suspect you also believe that 18 year olds should not now be allowed to remain on their parents health insurance plans because they are adults?
Just curious."

That's a great question, and at first I was stumped because I do think 18 year olds should be allowed to stay on the parents policy. Then I realized the difference. They should be allowed to stay on, not have the parents forced to keep them on. If a parent wants to pay the extra premium then great, just like it's ok if they want to pay for college. If they don't want to keep them on, then they shouldn't have to.

"I think defining adulthood is an interesting legal challenge that today is fraught with inconsistencies."

I totally agree with that. I also see the inequities that can arise from divorce situations and wish there was an easy answer, but I still feel that having laws on the books that allow a judge to dictate how much money a parent spends on college is a short step (or no step at all) to having them be able to make a parent pay for another necessity like an apartment etc (actually it's not even 'another' necessity since a shelter is one but a college education is not)
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:56 AM   #165
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Update on WSU scholarship awards:

Starbucks, double check your scholarship letter. My D had received the initial "automatic" WSU 4k notification with her sdmissions letter. Based on the web site calculator and the letter I was thinking that it was 4k per year. The updated letter arrived and it's 8k total specified as 4k per year over the first 2 years. Double check your letter, as you also mentioned 8k. According to my D's letter who has similar testing stats with a bit higher GPA the award is not a total of 32k over 4 years but ONLY 8k over 2 years.

There still may be more money out there based on the scholarship with a separate application, but the "automatic" award seems to get less impressive with each letter.
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