NewYorkDad1959

Thanks to all for the insights. They really are are fascinating!

The Enrollment Administrator job would be interesting, and challenging. Where do I apply??

thumper1

Actually at my daughter's college, the position of Enrollment Manager was a revolving door which leads ME to believe it's not all that much fun, and not all that appealing of a long term position.

The people in the job there had extensive experience in college admissions, and as financial aid officers PRIOR to applying for and accepting the job as Enrollment Manager.

sofrustrating

nydad: I'm no expert, but after getting responses from a number of schools, here are my impressions. 1) At first glance, all the packages my D has been offered are surprisingly close to each other. They may call different components different things, but the net amount we would have to pay is very close for a variety of better known private schools. It's as if they do know what other colleges are doing. 2) The amounts for my "9/10" D (she's just not a "10/10") are far above what we could realistically afford. I assume this is because the schools hope the parents will ultimately give in and pay anyway, somehow. 3) She is now being offered full scholarships to less known schools to which she didn't even apply-they're phoning her at home with offers. Free rides at lessor schools are much more plentiful and attainable then partial rides at popular schools.

My opinion? The system leads kids on then mostly breaks their hearts.

One more tidbit. My D's equals at school who have gotten great offers at the best schools are all going for engineering. I'm starting to think offers depend on the specified major, so be careful which box you check.

mom2collegekids

You are correct in that this is the flip side of the "need blind" acceptance model.

I think if I were running things I would probably maintain the need-blind acceptance, but then review the financial aid applications and make sure that I met as close to 100% of need as possible for the best of the needy students, understanding that the others would unfortunately be offered less.

That would be in the best interest of the school long term, wouldn't it?



Well, in your scenario, it still sounds like Child #3 wouldn't have gotten a great offer from Child #2's school. It sounds like Child #2 got a good merit scholarship. This could be a situation of preferential packaging for being a very strong student for the school. Child #3 didn't get such a package (perhaps because he's a very good student, but just not top for the school).



Merit based awards seem not to be too prevalent in our experience, and I'm not sure I like the idea of giving them to high achieving students who don't have the financial need if it reduces the money available to those who do. But among the pool of needy students, I think a big merit component makes sense.

How would you design your system?


The issue of merit money to affluent kids is controversial. However, if the money isn't from regular institutional funds, and is from donors who have given that money specifically to get high stats students on campus, the school has to comply with the donors' request.

But, even if the merit money is from general institutional funds, the school's long range strategy may be one that requires these "give aways to the affluent" right now, so that in the future the school will be in "better financial health" and be able to better help the needy.

You see, giving money for high stats reqardless of need are the first dominoes in the line. As those dominoes fall (merit awards for top stats), the school's reputation improves (middle quartiles rise), then rankings start rising, then even more high stats students enroll, then it becomes easier to attract the better profs to hire, then the better profs are able to snag more research dollars, the alums are thrilled and they give and give. The endowment coffers get very healthy and then the school can be generous with need-based aid.

The school that hasn't gotten its reputation in place and only gives money for need (probably mostly gov't aid), will rarely ever improve.

latichever

When applicants appeal their aid packages, I imagine that one reason a school asks for documentation on competing schools' offers is that this provides intelligence about what the competition is offering the same students.

NewYorkDad1959

I had not thought of that, good point. Child #3 is probably the strongest student, but he wouldn't bring any diversity (geographic, racial, cultural,etc.) to the less generous school. And because of his stats, it probably was pretty clear it was a "safe" school for him.
It seemed counterintuitive that practically the least competitive of the schools in the running would not have made a more aggressive FA offer to him, but these comments suggest that it could have been expected.

hornet

Great explanation Mom2.

Two years ago, I created a spread sheet of the 10 colleges that my second child got into with merit and need-based aid listed. For the most part, the schools were within several thousand dollars on their offers. I showed this sheet to the FA folks when I talked with a couple of the schools. They were mildly interested at best. One school pointed out that the schools offering more were ranked lower! Who the student is does matter in the negotiation. Child 2 was not a standout aside from offering geographic diversity.


I don't know if parents have thought much about how precarious need-based aid amounts can be. For our first child, we paid a lot the first two years (the need aid and merit scholarship together did meet the EFC but it was a huge pricetag). Two year later the EFC basically split when child two started. With two in at the same time, we paid no more than a state school for each. Child 1 is graduating this spring. If child 2 was depending on need-based aid, his COA would jump and the "good deal" would not be such.

A neighbor's father died and the family inherited money. The following year, the school where the child attends pulled out all of the need-based aid (this top LAC only offers need-based aid). The family was now faced with a 50K bill. Rather than spend the inheritance on the child's tuition, the student returned home to the state school. It was painful for the kid. Grandpa's death had not figured into the planning. Personally, I much prefer having scholarship money. At least it doesn't vary much.

mom2collegekids

A neighbor's father died and the family inherited money. The following year, the school where the child attends pulled out all of the need-based aid (this top LAC only offers need-based aid). The family was now faced with a 50K bill. Rather than spend the inheritance on the child's tuition, the student returned home to the state school. It was painful for the kid. Grandpa's death had not figured into the planning. Personally, I much prefer having scholarship money. At least it doesn't vary much.


I wonder if in cases like this, the student can take a year off, and then return? (not go to the state school in the intermission.)


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I had not thought of that, good point. Child #3 is probably the strongest student, but he wouldn't bring any diversity (geographic, racial, cultural,etc.) to the less generous school. And because of his stats, it probably was pretty clear it was a "safe" school for him.
It seemed counterintuitive that practically the least competitive of the schools in the running would not have made a more aggressive FA offer to him, but these comments suggest that it could have been expected.


NYDad....are you saying that Child #3's stats are higher than his sister's stats, yet SHE was awarded merit at the less generous school, but he wasn't? Even if the school thought it was a safety, they still should have offered merit. They couldn't lose. If he didn't come, they wouldn't pay anything...but if he did, they get to include his high stats.

hornet

"I wonder if in cases like this, the student can take a year off, and then return? (not go to the state school in the intermission.)"

Unfortunately,this would not "fix" the 125K inheritance fully. The EFC would drop back some with the money no longer being income but a parental asset. However, the parents really did not want that getting nibbled at (they did eventually pay off their house with a big part of it so it was protected when child 2 applied. Child 2 chose a state U as the family did not want another elderly relative passing to throw things).

A couple of other issues-if your child earns a lot at a parttime job or spends the summer at an internship that pays well, that can cause a spike in the EFC. Colleges take on a bigger percentage in the student's assets when calculating EFC.

condor30

nyd1959 - thanks for starting this thread. it's very interesting and helpful.
we r reviewing f/a packages now. we've input the offers on a spreadsheet and it's very helpful to see how the offers vary from one another. we found it helpful to look at free money given as a percent of the total coa. there are wide differences in the school's offers.

hornet - thanks for the tip on the summer employment for the student. that is also helpful information to have.

cptofthehouse

The way I was told that some schools parcel out their aid is this:

Your kid is an "A", "B" or "C" admit. that is the grade that admissions gives to the application. The "A"s will get any merit aid if available, with left overs going down the pike. Those kids who are applying for financial aid have those grades sent on over to that department.

The A's get full need met if at all possible. They are the crown jewels of admissions. THe "B"s are accommodated the best they can be, with more loans and self help in the package. The "C's get what's left.

In schools that have a need aware admissions policy, the "C"s might get rejected altogether with more level aid packages given.

But I don't think fin aid bothers to think about what another school might offer a candidate. They are trying to stretch the money they have as far as possible and their job is not to assess whose qualifications are better, other than how admissions has tagged them. THere are colleges where admissions and fin aid are done together, and in those the packages are more tailored.

Ana1

Of course the schools know what the competing schools offer. When we were dealing with FA last year, we asked the FA office to match the packages. They asked us what the schools were and requested a copy of the award letter. I bet the competitor's award, along with our extensive financial data from fafsa and the css profile would be studied for the school's personal calculations on how to improve and maintain their competitive level.

akebias

Colleges have a very good idea what their competition is offering. What they offer YOU depends on what they have to give and how badly they want you. If what you want is the best offer, and if you are a top student, you either aim high (to colleges that have large resources) or aim low (to colleges that have some resources and will feel that your child is a catch).

NewYorkDad1959

Mom2CollegeKids, Child #1 and now Child #3 have been admitted to a prominent school which meets 100% of need. I use the term "merit" aid too loosely, because the bulk is university scholarship money -- looks like "merit", but I think actually is all need based. Basically whatever amount is necessary to fill the EFC gap after federal grants, work study and a $3,000 student loan. Both were exceptional students.
Child #2 attends a different not-quite-so prominent school that does not meet 100% of need. He was not quite as good a student as the other two, but still very strong. He was rejected at the the school Child #1 and Child #3 will attend.
Child #2's current school is the one that made the least competitive offer to Child #3 -- at least $10,000 less than his other offers. In fact, Child #3's offer from the same school is about $6,500 LESS than his brother's actual financial aid package for this year.
Which is why I was scratching my head over why the school would offer Child #3 not only substantially less than the other schools who accepted him, but also significantly less than they already give his brother, who was not as competitive a student.
It must come down to the fact that the school does not "need" Child #3 in this particular year to round out its class based on his grades, gender, geography, race or whatever.
And of course based on the fact that the school likely does not have as much to spend as its competitors.
As to the "merit" vs. need based discussion, one of the schools which accepted Child #3 did package its very generous FA offer with a clearly designated renewable merit scholarship. This made us think long and hard about the school even though it was not one that he otherwise would have rushed to. Our EFC is low and has been since the recession hit, but we continue to hope that our finances will improve over the next four years, which would reduce the need based aid Child #3 will receive in the future. (Which would be fine by us, believe me!!)

cptofthehouse

NYDad, your model on how you would give out aid as an enrollment officer would not get very far at most schools. Giving $50Kpackages to the most needy kids is going to deplete your money much more quickly than getting some kids who show a $10K need that you can meet fully. Also, you are ignoring the fact that there are kids tagged by admissions that the school really wants, and their needs have to be met first.

What is often done, is after the top kids's packages are put together, there has to be enough kids to accept the schools' offer of admissions and to increase those chances, you want the money to stretch the furthest. If you have $50K to distribute, you are covering your odds a lot better by fully meeting the need of 10 kids needing $5K apiece.. over offereing the entire "cake" to the one needing the full $50K. Also when you need that much money, the inevitable increases in future years are going to be tough for such a family to meet whereas a family whose is so close to meeting the cost of the school is going to have a lot more wiggle room in dealing with the gap. You have to also understand that the "need " figures are just on paper as calculated, and true need is usually a heck of alot more. In other words, that $5K need family probably thinks they need much more money than that and a $50K need family who is likely to still have to cough up $5K or so in expenses is going to have a difficult if not impossible time doing so. I have seen kids here on this board and in person who are struggling to come up with the acceptance deposits and are worried about getting to the school if it's a distance away. A family I know with many kids and a home business, finds it very difficult to get their child to a "free ride" school 7 hours away. They are on that close of a margin.

So when managing enrollment, there is the mix of getting the most desired kids and also making the money go the farthest. When there is not enough money to meet all of the students a school want to accept, there are going to be kids who are gapped. The scary part of all of this is that there are many parents and students who are gapped who are taking out huge loans that they cannot afford under any logical, reasonable scenario because they so want a particular option and the loans are out there to take. You are wise not taking that route.