teachandmom

OP, be aware too, that schools usually expect your family to contribute more than the FAFSA EFC, so, even if that number looks "doable" for your family, most likely the schools could expect you to come up with double or triple that! The "EFC" is really just to calculate whether or not you qualify for the PELL grant - or other state grants, etc. Our EFC is 6200, but we are paying almost twice that for my D's school, and that was the best offer out of several. Some schools wanted over 3 times the EFC...just not workable for us.
Yes, applying ED does help a strong candidate's chances of acceptance, but if you are a kid who desperately needs financial aid to attend, you aren't in the socio-economic group that can afford to apply ED - might not be "fair", but life isn't fair. Rich kids who can pay the whole cost out of pocket can take the ED chance, or kids who don't need boat loads of financial help. Admissions reps at EVERY college visit we attended said over and over, "if you need to be able to compare financial aid offers to determine the schools you can afford, then do not apply early decision. You won't have the benefit of being able to compare offers and may have to commit to a school that then ends up being more expensive then you can honestly handle." Don't forget, just like building a house, there are always unexpected expenses that come up during college - so if at first it looks like, yeah, you can just barely afford a school but you take the plunge, throw in an unexpected car accident that means a car purchase, or something goes wrong on a house leading to an unexpected expense, and now, that college that was just workable becomes impossible...
It's hard when you are a kid to have to think about all the monetary concerns that adult life brings, but when you are taking about spending thousands of dollars, a family that doesn't have extra money means kids have to learn the hard realities. Your fortitude is going to bring you through and make you a much more appreciative student of whatever education you can afford - You will make the most of it, whether you attend your State U, or Duke.

madisonEnosidam

"Has either of your parents remarried?"
-Neither of my parents is remarried.

"With both you and your sister starting college, together, the EFC will be more like a 55/45 split between the 2 of you"
-Sorry, what do you mean by this?

"Absolutely included BU and any other schools that have historically been favorable in giving aid and scholarships to kids from your school."
-I was in a new high school for the past three years, so the seniors above me are unfortunately the only ones who have graduated from m high school. However, I have to transfer to a public school for senior year, which typically sends a few kids to ivys and such every year, although I'm not sure what the financial aid offers typically are, and I'll ask.

"Would it be better to get in and not be able to afford it? That sounds worse to me. Are you just keeping score?"
Definitely not, I just know that if I got in, I would do absolutely ANYTHING to be able to go, including asking extended family to pitch in and stopping my extracurriculars to work multiple jobs and taking out a lot of bank loans. I would rather have the option and work really hard and apply for a hundred scholarships than not get in at all. It's definitely not to "keep score," especially since i don't intend to apply to schools I don't truly want to go to.

"I strongly encourage you to also apply early in the cycle to any schools on your list that have rolling admissions or non binding early action."
-I have about four schools on my list that I will be applying early to, three of which I will almost definitely be accepted to. Thanks! This is definitely good advice.

"It sounds, to me, that your mom feels very bad about how the divorce is affecting the kids so she's being "supportive" of the ED app...even if it's not a realistic strategy."
-To be honest, the divorce isn't affecting me badly AT ALL, and my mom knows it. I'm not lying when I say I'm not affected by not seeing my dad. My parents have been divorced before, and I cried when they got back together because I'm not a fan of my dad and I don't mind not having him around, and if anything, I was glad when I found out they were getting divorced again. The reason why my mom is being supportive is because she believes that we'll get enough financial aid, could have the forms waived, and even if not will still probably get good financial aid. 110K isn't that much, especially compared to the families of most of the kids who apply to Duke. We will also very likely get a lot of the local scholarships in my town. Mostly, it's just having hope that something will turn out right. My mom isn't one to lie or be anything but completely sincere. If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that my mom is fully on board, not just for my sake and with complete understanding of the possibilities and what it means.

Why not apply to Vanderbilt and USC (calif). They don't usually require NCP info.
I am applying to Vanderbilt! Thanks so much to the person who suggested it, I've done a lot more research on it and it's one of my top schools currently. However, I base my decisions on whether i like the school and I think I'm a good fit as a student, not financially, and USC is not what I'm looking for.

"If you talk to your dad and he PROMISES that he'll fill out the NCP paperwork and supply financial info, then maybe applying ED isn't that bad as long as you have other apps out there"
-I contacted him. He wants me to waive the forms but says he'll "probably be able to find time" to fill out the paperwork if I can't. In my dad's terms, it I'm annoying about it and nag him to fill them out, I'll probably be able to get him to do it.

" It is entirely possible that you and your twin might qualify for PELL and can use the Stafford loans towards your EFC, as some schools do not include loans or PELLS in the packages they give to the students"
-Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this (I feel so clueless looking at this entire thread.) I know Duke gives mostly just grants and limits giving out loans, and in my case I would probably be granted mostly grants, by a large majority. I'm not sure if that gives you more information that you already have.

"if you need to be able to compare financial aid offers to determine the schools you can afford, then do not apply early decision. You won't have the benefit of being able to compare offers and may have to commit to a school that then ends up being more expensive then you can honestly handle."
-I'm really hoping that they take into account the mess that is my mom's financial history, but if not, I know that there's a possibility that I would be in trouble. Just a question: Can I take out student loans for my entire college cost (minus obvious scholarship deuctions) to be paid at the end of my four years? This sounds like a dumb question, but everyone here is assuming my mom will be paying for my college education, which I didn't think would happen. Are the only loans I can have the ones given to me by the school, or can I also get bank loans and such?

Sorry for this very long response. I want to thank everyone again for responing. Although I know that I now feel even more confused in some ways, I also know what questions to be asking and how to proceed. Thank you especially to cptofthehouse for suggesting Vanderbilt, which I love! I would not have known their financial aid information if you hadn't informed me of it.

kelsmom

My daughter graduated from Vanderbilt in 2011. The financial aid is fabulous! The school itself is great, as well.

thumper1

Our income wasn't a whole lot higher than yours. Out kiddo had $10,000 in merit aid for Boston University and the rest was our bill to pay. When his sister started college and we had two in college at the same time, they increased his scholarship by $250.

Unless your family can afford to pay the majority of the cost of attending Boston University, an acceptance will do you no good. As a student, you will have no way to work enough hours to pay this yourself. Sure...apply regular decision...maybe the money will come through.

I very seriously doubt you will get a noncustodial parent waiver.

madisonEnosidam

That's wonderful! Congrats to your daughter (though likel overdue!). Can I ask - what does she think of the town of Nashville? I am from the Northeast (where are you from, if you don't mind my asking?) and I don't think I'll have a chance to visit!

I know BU is very expensive and gives different amounts of financial aid, the onl reason I know I would get a good scholarship that is reasonable is because of their affiliation with my school. That's awful and shameful that the onl gave you $250 extra. That's crazy.

KatMT

You personally can take out a direct loan (stafford) for 5500 as a freshman, 6500 as a sophomore, and 7500 as a junior and a senior. If your parent applies for a PLUS loan and is denied you can borrow an additional 4000 per year. Some schools also have the ability to offer Perkins loans, but this will vary.

It is unlikely that without significant merit money you will be able to afford private university tuition on your own. A non-custodial parent waver will likely be difficult to obtain since you have contact with your father.

For private loans you will need a qualified co-signer.

madisonEnosidam

Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the information!

kelsmom

We are from Michigan. The south is "different" ... but that is not a negative thing. It's just a statement of fact. There are lots of non-southerners at Vandy, and not all southerners are the same! But my D was used to UMich football games, where people wear jeans and sweatshirts, so it was strange to her that everyone was dressed up for games. It's little things like that that are different (people are people everywhere).

My D LOVED Nashville. It's a very liveable town. She loves music (singer-songwriter stuff), so was happy to get her fill of great music. She didn't party - never rushed or went to a fraternity part - but she found friends and things to do. She took advantage of so many things Vandy had to offer, and she truly felt that she got a top-notch education.

SlitheyTove

Here's another possibility:

Apply to Duke RD. Yes, you're giving up the ED admissions boost. You'd get the same FA package regardless. You'd probably have some other admissions offers, and some other perhaps more generous FA packages. Those become your bargaining chips with the Duke FA office. They will be much more inclined to negotiate with your FA during RD than during ED. There'd be a greater possibility of being able to afford Duke, in exchange for a lower possibility of being actually admitted.

It's clear you'd love to go to Duke. It's also clear that the finances just might not work out. Unless your extended family is very well-off, you're unlikely to get much money from them--after all, you're a strong student who will be offered generous merit aid elsewhere. Working multiple jobs while a student isn't going to produce much revenue, and could reduce your aid package. Outside scholarships large enough to make an expensive school affordable are highly competitive. Of course you should apply for these, with the understanding that many other excellent applicants are vying for them, too. Smaller scholarships are often just for freshman year. And bank loans are limited unless you have a cosigner...and as you are considering med school, anything outside the Stafford limits is a bad bad bad idea.

cptofthehouse

Let me try to clarify how things work in financial aid most of the time. You will have to complete FAFSA. Your mother, your twin and you will each have to apply for a PIN and your mother will have to complete the parent section for both you and your twin. Your father will not be involved in the process though his child support payments have to be included as income. The numbers used will be from your mother (and you/twin's if you file) tax information for 2012, and the earliest you will be able to fill out this form is on Jan 1 2013. The numbers will have to jive with the return and you will not get the actual money until this is done, so this is not the year to fool around with extensions. The day any of you complete the FAFSA, your accounts should be as empty as possible--don't pick pay day to do this, but AFTER your bills are paid. If you and your sister have any bank accounts or assets, you should start reimbursing your mother for living expenses, and have her put such payments into an account with her name and ssn primary on it. Students get a direct hit of 20% of any assets with no allowance. Parents get hit maybe 5% or so after a certain allowance and if your mother is able to file certain short forms and qualifies for an automatic zero EFC, assets won't be counted at all until a rather high amount. Given your information, it is entirely possible that you and your sister will get zero or very low EFCs (Expected Family Contributions). IF that is the case, you will each qualify for up to about $5K in federal PELL grant money at ANY college since that money comes from the federal government and is guarnateed. This also qualifies each of you to $5500 in Direct loans also from the government, usable anywhere as long as the cost of attendance of a college is not exceeded, since, again this is government money, not any college's funds. The way the FAFSA EFC is calculated, it will be exactly half of what your mother's numbers are in that forumula plus whatever your personal financial numbers are for you, and your sister's will reflect her earnings and asset which could be different.

But most colleges that guarantee to meet need, the more generous schools, the ones you have listed, also want another application called CSS PROFILE. You will get the government money based on that FAFSA EFC as I said above, but when it comes to the school giving out any of its own money, it can follow the golden rule of "He who has the gold makes the rules". You could have a zero EFC and not be eligible for aid at some of these colleges, because they ask for information that FAFSA does not. They want that NCP information for which you want a waiver. They also want home equity info, sometimes values of cars owned, values of siblings' accounts, and 401 K and retirement accounts. SOme say that they want the value of the fillings in your teeth. The sick joke is that EFC stands for "Every Friggin' Cent" and Profile digs even deeper than that. So these wonderful, generous schools that guarantee to meet full need, define this need themselves. With me so far?

So it is possible to get full Pell and Staffords, which can come to over %$10K from the government, also get work study and if the school has some other federal program, get some money from them, but not get money from the school itself which is where you need to get the bulk of the funds since at $60K a year, which is what many of these privates cost, what FAFSA will qualify you for, ain't gonna cut it.

Your mother also would be eligible to apply for a Direct parent loan often called PLUS, but would have to be credit worthy. If she is declined, each of you, your twin and you can borrow an additional $4K on your own from Staffords. That is about it for loans that YOU can take out. ANything else will need a credit worthy cosigner to be on the hook right there with you, and that would be through private sources. Ain't no way anyone is likely to lend money to an 18-19 year old without a good credit and job history. You will need a cosigner.

As for applying for ED, I think it's a lousy idea, but if you are set on it, go on ahead. You will have to get your NCP waiver processed in that narrow window of time with your ED college. Because FAFSA is not available until January of 2013, for you, you would be completing a CSS PROFILE on an estimated basis for an estimated ED award. YOu are going to have the complication of his child support showing on your mother's income and also your twin will be trying to do the same, I imagine. Be aware that whatever estimated amount that an ED school awards is an estimate only, and they will do a verification process before giving out your money, once actual returns are due, and it may be a problem if there is snag when that happens. You will be asked to withdraw all of your applications based on that estimate, and if a problem arises, you will be up the creek, and you are not on solid ground here.

PROFILE does not split the EFC 50/50 betweem two students in college as FAFSA does. When I explained FAFSA, remember your mother will get an EFC and it will be split in half since there are two of you going to be in college. PROFILE schools take that number and give it a 60 or 55% split. In other words, if your mother (and in PROFILE without the waiver, your father) will get a contirbuiton amount, say, $1200 that she may be expected to pay in total for your education for a year. FAFSA would split that in half with $600 atributed to you and $600 to your twin. Not so with PROFILE, most of the time. That $1200 figure would not be split, but a percentage applied to it, say 60%, and a contribution of say $720 would be expected for you and $720 for your twin, so that the sum would exceed what she would have been expected to pay if there were just one of you in college. This gives you some idea how PROFILE works.

I have been seeing an increasing number of snafoos in EDs in the last few years, and IMO not the way to go if you are on thin ice as you are. Any changes or perceived changes from your ED estimated situation and you are done. You have no where to go and negotiate other than your local state school that are open admissions because you withdraw you app upon acceptance to ED which has provisions in that acceptance.

sybbie719

to piggyback on cpt's post

When applying for student financial aid from the federal government based on the information submitted by the student and their parent(s).

The FAFSA determines your eligiblity to receive federal aid : pell grants, seog grants (if applicable to your school) federal work study and federal student loans (subsidized/unsubsidized stafford loans and perkins loans). The FAFSA is required by all public colleges and universities and an overwhelming number of private schools require the FAFSA (some in addition to other FA forms).

Approximately 350 schools use the CSS profile to gather additional financial information in order to grant their own institutional aid.

If you attend a profile school, they use a combination of both the federal and institutional methodologies.

At minimum you file the FAFSA (at almost every school) to determine your eligibility for federal aid (Pell/ seog grants, stafford and perkins loans). Most public univeristies will just require the fafsa (the exception may be UVA, UNC- CH, Mich and a few others which may require their own forms)

The CSS profile is used at different colleges that distribute their own institutional aid (Many of these schools have much deeper pockets).

Many schools that use a federal methodology to determine EFC will require only the FAFSA. Schools that use an instutional methodology or a combination of the 2 will require the CSS profile or their own FA forms.

Differences between the IM and FM models are

IM collects information on estimated academic year family income, medical expenses, elementary and secondary school tuition and unusual circumstances. FM omits these questions.

IM considers a fuller range of family asset information, while FM ignores assets of siblings, all assets of certain families with less than $50,000 of income, and both home and family farm equity. Different schools look at home equity differently. some schools do not look at home equity, some schools look at home equity as a mulitplyer of income for example some s example if you have 150k in income, they may think that 1.5*150k (225k)or 150k * 2 (300K) of your home equity can be used to pay for college while still another set of schools may think at all home equity should be available to pay for college

FM defines income as the “adjusted gross income” on federal tax returns, plus various categories of untaxed income.

IM includes in total income any paper depreciation, business, rental or capital losses which artificially reduce adjusted gross income.

FM does not assume a minimum student contribution to education; IM expects the student, as primary beneficiary of the education, to devote some time each year to earning money to pay for education.

FM ignores the noncustodial parent in cases of divorce or separation; IM expects parents to help pay for education, regardless of current marital status.

FM and IM apply different percentages to adjust the parental contribution when multiple siblings are simultaneously enrolled in college, and IM considers only siblings enrolled in undergraduate programs.

The IM expected family share represents a best estimate of a family’s capacity (relative to other families) to absorb, over time, the costs of education. It is not an assessment of cash on hand, a value judgment about how much a family should be able to use current income, or a measure of liquidity. The final determinations of demonstrated need and awards rest with the University and are based upon a uniform and consistent treatment of family circumstances.

Except in the most extraordinary circumstances, Colleges classifies incoming students as dependent upon parents for institutional aid purposes, even though some students may meet the federal definition of “independence.”

The profile will take into consideration tuition for children attending high school. They may consider school expenses outside of high school for special needs children. They will consider unreimbursed medical expenses and taking care of elderly parents.


Students enrolling as dependent students are considered dependent throughout their undergraduate years when need for institutional scholarships is determined.

For institutional aid purposes a student may not “declare” independence due to attainment of legal age, internal family arrangements, marriage or family disagreements.

Your COA (cost of attendance) is tuition, room board, books travel expenses and some misc. expenses associated with attending college.

madisonEnosidam

@kelsmom: That's awesome! Nashville sounds great! I also don't plan to rush in college so I'm glad to hear that your daughter had a good time out of a sorority at Vandy. Also, I love singer-singwriter music too (it's definitely my favorite style!) so it's a relief that your daughter loved the music scene in Nashville! Thanks so much for the information!

@Slithey Tove: That makes sense. Although I hate to admit it because it makes me really sad, almost everyone here agrees that I should apply RD, or not at all, basically. I know it makes sense, and I pride myself on being logical, so I know it's not the right choice to apply ED. It breaks my heart, but I'll definitely be discussing it more with my mom whether or not to apply ED. I'm sure I'll be happy wherever I end up, and if I don't go to Duke for Undergrad, maybe I'll apply for grad school (even though I know they have like a 5% med school acceptance rate). I'm not going to delude myself into thinking I could get in RD, I know the chances are quite slim.

@cptofthehouse: Thanks for that. I feel like that put everthing in this thread into one post. I followed the whole thing and I feel like I've put everthing together now.

Just another question: Do you think that I would get bad financial aid at Duke if my dad's income was included? 110K before taxes? I'm not sure if that's low or high or average compared to the majority of applicants at Duke, but if everyone applying ED had really high incomes (enough to be able to afford Duke without considering finaid) would mine still be considered relatively low, with my dad's income included? I'm really just wondering, I know this doesn't really mean anything and my family income compared to others' family income doesn't mean anthing/change anything.

sybbie719

Run your numbers through Duke's net price calculator, so that you can see what the EFC is going to be.

Run it 3 times; once using only your mother's income, once using only your father's income and once using their combined income (see if the combined income is more or less than the using the incomes of your parents separately (which will happen when you file the profile and the non-custodial profile).

cptofthehouse

Duke's NPC is pretty accurate because they guarantee to meet need, and give virtually no merit money. They also tend to be straightforward in how they dispense it. So play around with it.

You probably will do pretty well with two in college, and better yet with three. Also,find out if Duke is a no loan school, because if it is, you will be able to get the Stafford DIrect loans on top of what they give. Also, since PELL is based on custodial parent alone, you will be eligible for that. You might want to call Duke financial aid and ask if they integrate the PELL and the Staffords into their need or if that goes on top of it.

It's difficult to try to figure out where you will get the best deals because even schools that say they meet full need, have their own definitons of need, different ways they meet need, and some give different types of packages to students with the same need with their top picks getting preferential packaging (no loans/work, or very little). The example I gave with the Staffords and PELL is just one example of how different schools will treat the same thing.

cptofthehouse

The thing with ED is that the schools themselves want it to be a done deal, so if you have threads hanging like NCP waivers and other complications, they are likely to not want to deal with it at that time. The ED gives students a bit of a leeway at some schools but in exchange the student has to be in the position to accept. The schools do not want to deal with ED kids once that process is finished, as their big job is coming right up--the deluge of the RD applications. You are supposed to be a done deal by the time they start with them.

If you can get the NCP forms in as soon as possible and get some sort of green light before the ED deadline for it from the Duke financial aid office, that might be a way to try to go. Frankly, I see and read about situations like yours all of the time, and don't see any reason why you should be given a NCP waiver. It just comes down to your father refusing to pay or not having the money to pay even with an income where he should be contributing, or refusing to fill out your forms. There are tens, no hundreds, of thousands of kids in that same situation. The ones who get NCPs are generally those whose parents are no where to be found, have not been in the students life for years, have documented abuse issues, and certainly not paying child support, court mandated or not. Sybbie deals with cases like this, and she can tell you that kids in far more dire straits than you are denied the NCP. A parents refusal to pay or cooperate is not reason enough.