dodgersmom

Really, bluebayou? The original post stated that ED might be the right choice "for high-need students who are shooting for private, need-conscious colleges that meet all (or most) of demonstrated need." For the record, the only colleges that satisfy that definition are the tippy-top schools!

But, if you enjoy splitting hairs, please carry on . . .

mhmm

I would imagine that a highly sought low income student can apply ED to the types of schools that guarantee to meet full need (the tippy top schools) without worrying much about not being able to afford them. Everyone else should adhere by the net price calculator as, in my opinion, its like the old pregnancy tests - unreliable for negative, but 100% guaranteed for positive, meaning that its pretty accurate when it comes to the top amount you will be paying, but you may go down from there.
What I have a problem with is the "wiggling out of the ED, if the numbers dont work." I imagine that if people go with that idea, then in a "generation" (four year span), colleges will be reluctant to accept the majority of ED students with high need, knowing that there is a great chance they will "wiggle" out. And that obviously hurts future generations of high need students and the schools from which they come.

cptofthehouse

The term, "wiggle out" is really not exactly right. It's a straightforward process with most ED situation. You send in your estimated financial information (given the early due dates for the applications and the decision, you are really going to have to estimate that last quarter), and along with the an ED acceptance comes an estimated aid package that will be adjusted according to the family's actual numbers for the year. If it's what is expected and all that the family dreamed for, it'a a GO and, that's where everyone loves ED. Win-win, here. If it's not doable, a total disappointment, one talks to the financial aid office to see if there were any mistakes, if anything can be reexamined, etc, etc. Keep in mind this is as we are entering the holiday seasons and the admissions offices are gearing up for the big deluge. If nothing can be worked out so the family can afford it, then the student can request a release, and that's it. That's part of the deal, and there is no "wiggling out" to any of this. Not enough money to make it doable, and you can say "no thanks".

It's the third scenario that makes it very difficult. It's doable but not what you expected or hoped for and still going to be a rough go. You talk to admissions, fin aid, and your counselors and try to work it out, and you will likely hear repeated that the schools do give as much as they can for ED candidates. They want to make it work. Even schools, like CMU, that does not guarantee to meet need, will meet need (as they define it for ED kids). So everyone is telling the truth. So you are emotionally involved here, your kid is on his/her knees wanting this to work, and there is this financial aid package that is really just a few grand over what you had figured you would pay. So you say, fine.

Then you find out in spring when your kid's friend's acceptances and packages arrive that the college your kid liked for ED does not define need as well as a number of other schools that he might have considered. As Sybbie and Katwkittens who have gone through the process have said, even top schools with the "Best" aid can give widely varying need packages. And maybe that kid who has always been runner up to yours actually gets a full ride with the trimmings merit package at a school that your kid was also considering in the process before s/he got the ED bug. And yes, ED runs viral in certain high schools, where it becomes a "gotta do" thing among the top students. It was a bit rough for my last kid that he had no early schools on his list with all of his friends getting their early writes.

So I have no problem with "wiggling out". It's permitting and actually pretty rare, I've been told, and I'm sure it is given the big momentum and hoopla that goes into taking it.

lookingforward

The colleges determine "need" and, as Sally noted, NPCs are in their infancy. No family depedent on aid should assume.

If you think you will get X, you should know X is affordable- and that, if that doesn't actually come through, what your real limits are. This isn't just about, "Oh, instead of the Stafford and a 5k Plus Loan, we'll take a larger Plus." Families should be aware of the limits of what they can manage, this fall and over the next 4 to 14 years. (Each year of loans will have a 10-year payoff.) And, costs will likely go up for years 2,3,4.

Plus, Sally mentioned need-aware. The tippy tops (HPYS + many schools on the CC radar) are need-blind. So, ime, they may or may not see that a kid checked the box that he is applying for aid, but the adcoms are not privy to any details.

While kids wait for ED decisions, their focus is on the near future. Parents should be looking at the longer span. If they can, and can be responsible, ED can be just fine. If the right aid does not come through, you have to find the strength to make a solid, reality-based decision.

a bit of x-posting. I agree all this gets too emotional. And, a little self-indulgent. With very rare exceptions, even the brightest kid out there can get a quality education at many choices. Sorry to say, many kids with "dream schools" don't even really know so much about what that school offers them that places it so far ahead of the rest. You see that in the "Why Us?" responses, even on CC.

GolfFather

If that is the case (and I do believe you) that would come out to us paying for my D to attend Harvard and Yale at the same time in addition to paying for a private helicopter to commute her back and forth.

isaiahstock

OP mentioned something about being able to wiggle out of comittment without adequate aid--who determines whether or not it's adequate?

cptofthehouse

From what I have seen and heard, the family/student determines whether or not it's adequate. I've yet to hear any situation where a student who wants to get out of the ED commitment due to the money situation is denied. It is possible that the high school, the school in question will request that a family participate in some form of review to see if more funds could not be given or if a mistake has been made. There may be pressure in that schools often do "put the best foot forward" in aid for ED. They don't want kids to back out and will work with the family, is what I have seen. But the numbers are often pretty danged clear. The schools are not going to just give the money either.

No school can "make" a student attend and/or pay. Colleges tend to be easy in releasing kids from ED UNLESS they smell something fishy going on that is in violation of the ED rules. These are usually selective schools and they want kids eager to go there. So that isn't a big issue.

However, it can take time to get it together and go through a review process. ED is a small part of admissions and anytime in any process when you go against a grain, you can run into some problems. I know from several years ago, a young lady accepted ED and for parental medical reasons backed out of it. Despite the fact that the ED school released her from her commitment, she still showed up on ED lists and was taken out of consideration from some other colleges. In her case, it did not much matter, as she was going to go local and commute anyways, but, yes it did happen and, it does happen. It's also a rather awkward thing to have to tell other schools that you backed out of ED for valid reasons and the school released you, and, er, can you make sure you don't drop me from your admissions considerations? It's not viewed in very good light to back out of ED and the reasons can often just disappear when it comes time to examine our file. Deciding on whether you get accepted or not, is usually a very quick process, and just knowing that something was an aberration or off or something on a file is not a good vibe to give. Also if some schools are need aware in admissions, telling them that you opted out of ED because of inadquate aid may not be the best message to send them. Those schools are really hung up on yield and needing too much money is definitely an issue that can affect admissions.

bluebayou

with all due respect, dodgermom, what you call 'splitting hairs', I call clarification.

More relevant to the point, you are also incorrect. There are plenty of schools that meet 'most demonstrated need', and many of those aren't very selective. The lowest-ranked UC's, for example, meets ~90% of need (which is 'most" in my limited vocabulary), and yet accepts every breathing 18 year-old with a B average.

SlitheyTove

That's the delicate bright line, right there. If the family has set a budget and made it clear that they can afford to pay no more than $X per year, then yes, ED can work. Other families will be looking to find the absolute minimum family contribution. ED won't work in that situation. THAT'S what needs to be stressed. Students from high need families that are applying ED need to be prepared for turning down the ED admission if the financial aid offer isn't big enough. If that would be too painful for the student, it's not worth it.

blue, as you know UC's don't do ED and aren't private (though they're certainly priced like privates for OOS ), so it's disingenuous to say that they were covered by Sally's OP.

emeraldkity4

Huge difference IMO between most or all of need.
When a college says " most" need, that gives them the flexibility to meeting 100% of need of a student they want to entice, who is comparing other offers, but only offering to meet 60% of need to a student who may be willing to accumulate debt in order to attend her "dream" school.

Even when a school meets 100% of need, they get to determine what that need looks like by considering other things besides custodial parents income.

Need can also be met by offering self help. Some schools even put PLUS loans in the aid package.

It would be nice to have ED out of the way early on in your senior year - as long as you can deal with the rush to finish your application and commit to one school. Especially if aid isn't critical.

But this is the big hang up for me regarding ED. Students are making a commitment to an ED school early senior year - at a time when they also seem to be undergoing a lot of internal growth.
My oldest went from applying to graphic design programs to majoring in biology.

To apply ED that school has to be your first choice by a significant margin, although there are also schools that are EA and aren't binding.

If the financial offer comes back and it meets " need" but it requires you to take maximum Stafford & Perkins loans, but also requires your parents to take out $ 20,000 in PLUS loans, how easy is it going to be to switch gears & convince yourself that your 2nd or 3rd choice school will be " good enough"?

I have seen it be difficult for students to let go of their dream school if they were wait listed or denied - let alone, be accepted but with a suboptimal aid package.

cptofthehouse

A big factor in all of this too, is that most families and students don't understand the intricacies of financial aid and how all of this works. I considered myself fairly well versed in a lot of things about college admissions, but knew little about how financial aid worked, and when I looked into it, my head was spinning. It's an awfully short time after senior year has begun and the apps are out to get a handle on ED, definition of need FAFSA, PROFiLE, need blind, need aware, student contribution, full rides, merit awards, etc. Making a commitment in that short of a time frame seems to me not to be recommended for most people. If a student/family is well versed in all of this and/or has a good counselor to guide them, it's one thing, but that isn't always the case.

The reason a low income family can be hurt more if things go south on all of this is because there simply are fewer assets to "buy" flexibility. A full pay family whose kid goes ED and that kid hates the school...well, s/he can transfer. See it all of the time. One who is on full financial aid does not have that easy flexibiltiy. One can always change ones mind, but the extra few months of geting more info can lead to knowing the terrain a bit more. I'm still learning things new all of the time about how these things work. The idea of having to make such a commitment in a short time frame when the knowledge base is at ground zero is not something I would want to do.

emeraldkity4

Re: differences in EFC, I may be forgetting to add money back in that went to retirement accounts. ( we have been trying to make up for lost time + tanking of investments)
It also seems like EFC is closer to 1/3 when you earn over six figures.
What % of income is normal for EFC?

$35,000 EFC, $110,000 income

GolfFather

Yes, as has been discussed many times and here recently:

Is the Early Admission Decisions Binding?

ED is not a contractually binding agreement. It’s more of a “mutual understanding,” let’s say.

As an official from NYU said:

“They are, after all, 17 years old. This is not a legal agreement they have signed. If a student (doesn’t want to attend our school) we release them. It doesn’t make sense to have students who don’t want to be here.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/ed...tegy.html?_r=0

And . . .

Let's not also forget - when a college says it "meets" most or all of Financial Aid "need," it doesn't really meet the need. What a large chunck is - the college is allowing the students and parents to take out loans and for the student to work. To me, that is not financial aid.

I took out a loan to buy a car. The bank did not give me aid.

SlitheyTove

Looking at the USNWR list of schools that claim to meet full financial need, most of the schools listed are schools that are highly ranked on USNWR's national university and national LAC list. Taking USNWR rank below 40 as a totally arbitrary cutoff of "highly ranked" , the only three schools on the full financial need list with ranks below 40 are Gettysburg, St Olaf, and Pitzer. Southern Arkansas University and Thomas Aquinas don't make the "highly ranked" criterion either, but don't offer ED.

cptofthehouse

In my experience at a number of different schools over the years, most colleges are amenable about releasing the student from ED unless they smell rat. They don't want to waste the time going after someone punitively unless they have the proof that someone was trying to pull a fast one. From what I understand, most kids do come through on the ED agreement. Take a look at the matriculation rate for EDs and you can see that the yield is very high, close to a 100%. As it should be since that is the whole point of ED. So the vast, vast majority of students take that ED acceptance and run with it. They are done with the college process.

Where I have seen trouble is with the high schools. ED often requires the counselor's signature on the app that the student is well aware of all of the issues, limitations, drawbacks, and commitments in an ED acceptance, and many schools, particularly those that focus on select college admission get very upset when kids break these agreements. Many schools actually have it written as part of the school rules in their handbook that if the kid breaks ED, the school reserves a right not to support any further college application/admissions for that cycle year. How successful they would be in enforcing something like this, I don't know, but I have seen the provision several times, and counselors and headmaster/principals have threatened such sanctions. The word is that it affects future acceptances to college from that high school and damages the reputation of the counselor.

So there is a tremendous push for the kid to accept ED. Now if the financials straight out don't work out, then the release is automatic and that provision is spelled out. But really when a kid is accepted ED, the impetus is such that it's a done deal. And once the kid does accept the ED offer and rescind his other applications, it's a bit late for buyer's remorse. Then you are in deep mire if you want to back out of ED.