candi1657

Thanks, I really appreciate it...Just taking a break from midterm madness to peruse these boards...

I hope the result of my post is not to have people pity me, but just some desperately-need perspective on the issue. It is only human to examine situations primarily from one's own frame of reference, but it can lead to some poorly derived conclusions. I think I enjoy Yale much better because of the things I've been through, I still marvel when wandering the quarters of the residential colleges, and everyday I wake up, I whisper to myself, "I can't believe I'm here." The experience is just made infinitely better.

lkf725

You are lucky now, candi (certainly not to detract from your difficult childhood). Many worthy students from hard working, "middle class" families won't be able to afford to attend the ivy league.

nedad

The problems arise AFTER graduation. At that point, when the students are independent and living their own lives, it becomes hard to justify why one student is saddled with $100,000 in loans while another has none because it was deemed that the parents were poor.

Candi, I have read many of your posts and admired what you have accomplished. That said, many people have suffered in very many ways, and if we begin to play that game, it will degenerate very quickly into, "Oh yeah! Well WE had to live in a cardboard box!" I am not being flippant or sarcastic, but many people do not discuss the pain, humiliation, poverty and problems they have been through. This does not make them any less. People with money can suffer from cancer; be abused, etc. While people are not inferior for being poor, neither are they superior.

As Tevye said in "Fiddler on the Roof," "There is no shame in being poor, but it's no great honor, either," and certainly not enough honor to claim that your experience is "infinitely" (your word) better than anyone else's.

emeraldkity4

Don't the Ivy leaque schools offer to meet 100% of need?
Princeton replaces loans with grants
Harvard is waiving tuition for students with incomes below $40,000
and I bet workstudy opportunities for students at an ivy league campus are many.
Many opportunities to earn money summers for students from "hardworking families", my daughter earns about $3,000 each summer and a little more than that during the school year. She also takes out loans to add to the grants she gets from her school.
Schools that meet 100% of need are a great resource for students.

candi1657

"You are lucky now, candi (certainly not to detract from your difficult childhood). Many worthy students from hard working, 'middle class' families won't be able to afford to attend the ivy league."

I am certainly am lucky, but not simply or even primarily because I go to Yale. Actually, if I had known that I would have to encounter so many difficulties in regards to health insurance and other expenses I might've reconsidered and stayed in the city. I am lucky primarily because I have such a tight-knit family, who I can rely on for anything. I see how distant many kids at Yale are from their family emotionally and I feel sorry for them.

sybbie719

Under the Yale financial reform thread Candi wrote:

while I beleive that many with "0" efcs are greatful for the need based financial aid, not everyone's needs will be fully met by grant aid. Yale has deep pockets and Candi has some loans. As we already know some schools can meet you demonstrated need using al loan money. Everything is not the great panecea that it seems to be.

candi1657

Nedad, I see what you are saying...But I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying when I stated that my experience at Yale was made infinitely better. It is no fault or credit to me what circumstances that I was born under. However, if one does come from someplace like my neighborhood and wind up at Yale the experience feels magical and unreal. It's like stepping into a dream. That's a reality that doesn't make me inherently better than anyone else. I have many friends here that certainly appreciate the fact that they're at Yale. However, they don't really understand how I feel when I walk into a previously unencountered room or section of a residential college and I feel like a million bucks, light as a cloud, thinking "Is this really me? I'm at Yale!"
This is no fault of their own, and certainly no credit to me...but it makes me feel like a princess. I keep it to myself, though.

I have one close friend that I do discuss these things with. He says that I make him feel as if he's been very sheltered in life. And I tell him his experiences make me feel very sheltered! Sharing our experiences with each other makes us realize their narrowness, and appreciate being able to learn from people with very different experiences than our own.

candi1657

emeraldkity4, I thought getting a job would be made easy by their sheer numbers, but I've found that this is not the case. I've applied for 10 or more jobs through SEO without success (I believe primarily because my computer literacy is lacking). Most of the time I've gotten no response at all. I went on one interview and wasn't called back. I got so desperate at one point that I gave my number to a strange man at a local pizza shop with two small children in tow, begging for a babysitting job. I am also limited in what jobs I can take by my connective tissue disorder, though I've grown considerably less picky!

So loans are covering the work-study, at least for now. I don't dwell on it too much though...I always figure things are going to work themselves out, whether you grow gray hairs worrying about it or not. My mother, however, thinks I am too laid-back.

candi1657

Re-reading my first post, it does seem a tad harsh, but this is a sore spot for me. The same theme manifested itself in a new way when my suitemate deduced that I had a medical single (because of my CTD) and would be entitled to one for all four years...She played it off, but some of her comments sounded they begrudged me the single, and that really bothered me. I felt that she was making light of my disorder simply because she didn't want a roommate next year. I did agree with her, however, that there was no special reason that most people with medical singles actually needed them, they were just given to people with relatively serious chronic medical disorders. There is no exaggerating/finagling needed to get one, which I think she was disappointed to hear. So yes, I do find the situations analogous.

kb54010

I know its annoying that the resouces don't seem to be there for some families. I live in an upper-middle class family, and it seems that the whole financial aid system is slated against us. However, regardless, my family does have the resouces to support me going to any school (with a little help). So my family and I don't mind taking the shaft on this one if it means that people like ericng can have the chance to go somewhere like cornell. I think of it this way; because of my families income, I have more resoucres to seek outside financial aid. So far, I've got about 10,000 a year. It took me a long time to find all that money through scholarships, but I don't work (nor do i need to to support my family), I don't provide childcare for my family (most poor families rely on older siblings, since childcare is the biggest expense to working families), and I go to one of the best high schools in Illinois (where virtually no one lives anywhere near the federal poverty line).

To those of you who have chosen to bring war against the most humble in our society, I think you should count your blessings. Thank God (or Allah, or Buddha, or you cat....anybody) that you grew up in such a financially blessed household, and that you had the opportunities that come with it. If you are paying more for college than what it convenient, remember, most working families, despite liberal financial aid, are trying to pay more for college than is possible.

somemom

In reading this and thinking about it, I do not believe that most people begrudge financial aid to the people who seem to really need it. The frustration comes when one family just barely qualifies and thereby gain a full-ride with no loans to an Ivy-type school whereas the best friend's family just barely does not qualify and they either have big loans or must select another school.

If family A makes $10k and family B makes $60k, there is not likely much conflict; it is family A at $30k and family B at $40k with vastly different packages that causes the frustration.

When our kids are trying out for the basketball team, the cheerleading squad, the football team.........the top picks are obvious, but the difference between the last man chosen by the coach and the first one cut is not so very dramatic.....they are probably interchangeable. Just as being cut from the Varsity football squad changes a kid's high school experience, being the family that just missed the finaid boat while your buddy barely made the cut, then seeing the difference in the next four years of your life can instill bitterness and for valid reasons.

Without even considering the assets one can own, but not count, the kids who receive finaid who appear to be living larger than you, even without seeing any one who seems to be 'cheating;" simply review the FAFSA formula, and realize how random the formula can appear. Then move on to the Profile, I know several families (I know, anecdotal stories again) where people have huge home equity in an expensive area (as the home values rose so did the equity) but could not afford a higher payment and also do not have nice safe retirement plans, but because of the equity they can only afford a public school which gives a large amount of aid, while the privates expect them to tap their equity (which they plan to use for retirement.)

Those familes do not begrudge the kid who grew up in a nasty apartment the aid, they begrudge the aid to the person who looks like them, lives like them, and for some reason can qualify for a much better, more exciting university experience while the other kid goes to state U on aid.

The unfariness of it all is the necessary randomness of the formula. If all of our complaints were addressed in a changed formula, then something else would be wrong and some one else would believe they got a raw deal. I jut don't see a solution. The best thing to happen is the schools that are offering no loans and not considering home equity.

voronwe

Thank you, somemom, for a post that brings a lot of clarity to the issues.

kb54010:
Whoa...I don't see anyone "bringing war" to "the most humble!" A little hyperbolic, don't you think?

jamimom

Candi, welcome back! My son has been accepted to Yale, so we may meet in the near future. I am glad to hear that you are getting through college. Yes, it is difficult and when loved ones are going through hardships, it is difficult to be away. We call education the great equalizer, but we have to also remember the time element in all of this. Though my family was fairly stable, I too, financed my way through college, and the loans were stifling. It's often one step in front of the other.

Our system of making the parents responsible for financing college, makes it unfair to many kids. But the same situation occurs in the early educational years. It is unfair for kids to be stuck at certain high schools soully because the parents have chosen a particular area to live. It is unfair that some kids go to expensive nurturing elementary/middle/highschools carefully chosen to fit with the child's profile, whereas other kids go to schools where it is downright dangerous. College is an extension of that mindset, unfortunately, and the reason for it is that setting a precedent for having tution independent of parents, would be a terribly expensive move. The way the rules work at this time, a student is pretty much independent of his parents' financial situation at grad school level or age 24.

hoedown

$100,000 in loans is a heck of a burden for any young graduate.

I know this commits the sin of grossly overgeneralizing, but some people believe that loans are especially burdensome for graduates who come from families of no means. They have less of a safety net, fewer family resources to help them if things go awry or it takes them awhile to find a good job. It may even be the other way around, where the graduate is expected to immediately contribute to the family's needs. Some people also worry that poorer students have fewer "choices" when it comes to majors because the pressure to land a good-paying job ASAP. Poor students facing loan debt may feel even more pressure. They also worry that worthy poor students will feel that they cannot pursue graduate study (which would add to their loans).

These worries really fit for most students who have loans, but some people worry that poor students are especially vulnerable.

kb54010

voron, if you read some of the previous posts, I think you'll find that my remarks are not hyperbolic at all.