How hard is it to get out of an ED agreement? - Page 4

'rentof2 · 11-02-2009, 10:04 PM

Yeah... the perils of ED get pretty exaggerated on CC. There are certainly compelling reasons not to apply ED in many cases, but the storm of karmic wrath that gets whipped up on CC is often overblown.

There have certainly been repercussions for students who cynically abuse the system... but if a kid can't afford to go to an ED college and asks to be released from the agreement, that's totally legit. It's not as though the college is going to monitor this student to see where else they apply and get accepted in RD. Like admissions offices have the resources for that??

I think if you accept an ED offer and then bail on it the spring to go to a peer school... that could get you in trouble. But at that point you're just begging for trouble.

ttparent · 11-02-2009, 10:05 PM

xiggi, I don't understand what exact point that you are trying to dispute. Where in the contract says that the school has the right to not release until it is satisfied with the subsequent school? That is quite a leap.

I have read my copy a number of times and I think we all understand that we need to withdraw within a small window of time if we don't think we can afford to pay after receiving the FA package. We can only shop around after we withdraw from what we think is unaffordable, I don't think anyone here is advocating trying to unfairly take advantage of the process. The accusatory tone is kind of a little over the top.

Greta · 11-02-2009, 10:09 PM

Toward, you have not given the impression of someone trying to game the system or someone trying to get an unfair advantage. You are just one of the many students (and parents) confused about what your signature on the ED agreement page really means. And in my mind, you have a right to be confused. It is not as clear as it could be and maybe that is by design.

xiggi · 11-03-2009, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Yeah... I think the common knowledge that ED colleges will only release students to attend a school that is not comparable in selectivity or cost is only "common knowledge" here on CC. I've never seen it anywhere else, and as vossron points out, it doesn't even make sense given the timing.

Yep, must be a figment of one's vivid imagination! OTOH, perhaps it WAS written somewhere ...

From the Columbia website:

Quote:

Source: Financial Aid | Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Admissions

10. Can I be released from my Early Decision contract because of my financial aid package?

Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. The admission offer at Columbia is then cancelled. A candidate who declines Columbia’s Early Decision offer will not be allowed to reconsider Columbia’s financial aid estimate in the spring Regular Decision cycle and will not be able to reinstate the original offer of admission.

vossron · 11-03-2009, 12:44 AM

^ In a practical sense, this is nonsense. They might as well say "or schools that award more financial aid." Such students don't know what other schools will offer later; they know only that they can't afford the ED offer.

xiggi · 11-03-2009, 01:01 AM

Vossron, why would Columbia spend the time to write a non-sensical statement on its own admission's board? What do they possibly gain from spelling out in terms that are less nebulous than others what their position is? Or do have a death of lawyers who can compose such agreements?

The way some want to present it, ED is supposed to be void of any type of binding commitment: All a student should need to do is decide his or her financial package is not sufficient an notify the school. The implication that this mere decision and notification triggers an automatic release.

Non-sensical or not, this is not what happens at Columbia. While a release is feasible, it is far from automatic. As far as being released only to attend a school that could offer merit aid, I'll assume that Columbia just wrote that part as an attempt to be ... facetious.

Oh well!

'rentof2 · 11-03-2009, 01:04 AM

It says ED students who can't afford to attend Columbia are released to pursue lower-cost options (duh!) such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. "Such as" does not mean "exclusively"--- for heaven's sake, those are examples of some (potentially) lower cost options. Of course a student who can't afford one school is going to look for one they can. If they can't afford Columbia but they can afford Williams, Amherst or Swarthmore (or wherever) because they get better need-based aid there then they *are* pursuing a lower-cost option.

Can't you just see Columbia's admissions office blowing its stack at some poor kid with limited resources who declines an ED offer from them in a timely manner, and who's then lucky enough to get admitted to a top ranked school where he or she can actually afford to go... and Columbia hunting them down and punishing them.

Let me know when that happens.

'rentof2 · 11-03-2009, 01:12 AM

Xiggi, you're exaggerating when you say, "The way some want to present it, ED is supposed to be void of any type of binding commitment"

It is a binding committment unless you can't afford it. It's in black and white. And as you read in the NYT article, there are other reasons students are released from that agreement as well.

A couple years ago when my son was considering an ED app to a number of colleges they all told us the same thing: If you can't afford to attend with the FA award you get, you are free to decline of the offer.

vossron · 11-03-2009, 01:43 AM

xiggi, you're asking us to believe that after forcing a needy student to matriculate, Columbia would either ignore the non-payment of the EFC, or would expel the student for non-payment. Either way it's nonsense. Columbia might use such wording to try to get applicants to take applying ED seriously, which they should. A cynic might say that Columbia is trying its best to discourage needy students from applying ED. Maybe they have had a death of lawyers.

'rentof2 · 11-03-2009, 03:16 AM

Not that Columbia is any kind of universal standard... but following on that since it was specifically brought up, here is a quote from their website:

"If applying for financial aid, students receive an estimated financial aid package at time of admission. If admitted, you must withdraw all other applications and accept our offer of admission. Only students who, after consultation with the Office of Financial Aid, cite financial reasons for not attending will be released from the Early Decision agreement."

So, yeah, check in with the FA office if your aid award is not sufficient (maybe they'll improve on it!), but the student is the agent who makes the call. They are the one that cites a financial reason for not attending and *will* then be released from the agreement.

Early Decision | Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Admissions

sybbie719 · 11-03-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Can't you just see Columbia's admissions office blowing its stack at some poor kid with limited resources who declines an ED offer from them in a timely manner, and who's then lucky enough to get admitted to a top ranked school where he or she can actually afford to go... and Columbia hunting them down and punishing them.

First of all Columbia is not going to "force" a needy student to attend. Through their HEOP program for NYS residents and the NOP (nationwide), they are going to fill the financial need for these students. In addition,

Quote:

•Columbia will eliminate loans for all students receiving financial aid, whatever their family income, and replace them with University grants.

•In an effort to further assist low-income families, parents with calculated incomes below $60,000 and typical assets will no longer be expected to contribute any of their income or assets to tuition, room, board, and mandatory fees.

•Families with calculated incomes between $60,000 and $100,000 and typical assets will see their parent contributions significantly reduced.

•To support students pursuing study abroad, research, internships and community service opportunities, Columbia will offer additional funding and exemptions from academic year and summer work expectations.

Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Financial Aid and Educational Financing

So there would essentially be very little reason for a student to back out of their ED commitment at Columbia.

In addition, from the GC perspective, many GCs will not go forward with the application process (sending transcripts, evaluations) until they receive written notice from the ED school that the student has been release (remember GCs are also responsible for explaining the process to students and many will not professionally hang themselves out for a family's lack of due diligence).

Under the Joint Statement on Common Ivy Group Admissions Procedures

Quote:

All Ivy institutions mail admissions decision letters in early April.
Those that offer an Early Decision or Early Action plan, as described
below, also mail admissions decision letters in mid-December. A
student who wishes a decision in December from one of these
institutions must apply by November 1 and must complete the
application with supporting materials shortly thereafter. A student
may file only one “Early” application of any kind within the Ivy Group.

Candidates in violation of this principle will not be considered until
the spring.

II. December Notification
Under December Notification, an applicant may be notified that he
or she has been granted or denied admission or that a final decision
has been deferred until the early April notification date. Two plans
currently are offered by Ivy Group institutions:

a. The College Board-approved Early Decision Plan, which is
offered by Brown University, Columbia University, Cornell University,
Dartmouth College, and the University of Pennsylvania, requires
a prior commitment to matriculate. Financial aid awards for those
qualifying for financial assistance will normally be announced in full
detail at the same time as the admission decisions. An applicant
receiving admission and an adequate financial award under the Early
Decision Plan will be required to accept that offer of admission and
withdraw all applications to other colleges or universities.

All the Ivy institutions will honor any required commitment to
matriculate which has been made to another college under this plan.

http://www.princeton.edu/admission/pdfs/0708_ivy.pdf

Greta · 11-03-2009, 09:40 AM

"Institutions will clearly articulate their specific policies in their Early Decision agreement."

For the benefit of the OP, can anyone find any expanded, clearly articulated, specific ED policy language for Northwestern? I couldn't find it.

And, outside of the Ivy's, has anyone come across other schools with Early Decision policy language beyond the generic Common Application ED signature page? Does it show up on the supplement pages of the application? Is it easy to find and clearly articulated (as opposed to buried somewhere on the website and fuzzy in interpretation?)

ttparent · 11-03-2009, 09:57 AM

And if such extra policy language exists why are we not informed before we signed the agreement? We signed the Common App ED form but we are bound to some other extra policy statement? How could that be?

ttparent · 11-03-2009, 10:30 AM

"Can't you just see Columbia's admissions office blowing its stack at some poor kid with limited resources..."

It does not even have to be a poor kid with limited resources. If they tell a middle class kid with a couple of siblings and with above average resources that he/she needs to come up with 220k in 4 years, how can his or her family say yes to that. Even if they knock 30-40k off that, it is still an untennable situation for most. Many of us are right at the precipice waiting for the moment of truth and we truly apply ED with all of it's shortcomings because the school is clearly our kid's first choice. It really does not help to hear things like they will come after you or your chance of getting to a comparably decent school is basically gone if the school does not offer you an adequate FA package.

If that is the way it is supposed to be, then shame on the system.

xiggi · 11-03-2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Not that Columbia is any kind of universal standard... but following on that since it was specifically brought up, here is a quote from their website:

"If applying for financial aid, students receive an estimated financial aid package at time of admission. If admitted, you must withdraw all other applications and accept our offer of admission. Only students who, after consultation with the Office of Financial Aid, cite financial reasons for not attending will be released from the Early Decision agreement."

So, yeah, check in with the FA office if your aid award is not sufficient (maybe they'll improve on it!), but the student is the agent who makes the call. They are the one that cites a financial reason for not attending and *will* then be released from the agreement.

You and a few others continue to make a point with which I do not disagree --now and before. The school cannot force a student to matriculate if offered a financial aid package that his and her family do not find sufficient.

However, what people here seem to be adamant about is that there are no NEGATIVE repercussions stemming from declining an ED admission. Also, the underlying message that people want to either repeat or hear is that the release is automatic. While it might at some schools, it is surely is not the case at Columbia since it requires an interview with a financial aid specialist AND a subsequent decision to release the student from his or her COMMITMENT.

Again, if someone believes that, by holding all the cards, a student could EASILY decline his or her admission to Columbia to test the waters at another Ivy League school or similarly ranked schools ... so be it and good luck to you.

This is not an issue of being wrong or right, or black or white. The ED system exists for a reason ... and it is not because it helps the students. The system has become critical to a well-defined number of schools, even as other have been able to abandon all early and restrictive decisions. Schools that do depend on the ED process to solidify their yield numbers --and bragging rights-- do not want the ED to be turned in a mockery nor in a system in which the families hold all the cards.

As far as schools such as Columbia, draw your own conclusions about which schools they do no mind losing a promising student to and ... other schools. Of course, there is always the assumption that schools only weigh the Common Good and are not engaged in an intense competition.

Again my posts are merely offering warning against messages that intimate that the commitments related to an ED admission are EASY to undo or, even worse, automatically removed by a simple decision of the applicants and do not carry any negatives.