siserune

It looks like the woman from HES who went to MIT has an even stronger pre-HES resume than I described above. She spent a year at MIT Artificial Intelligence lab (at that time basically the world center of computer science) after the first 2 years at MIT, then spent 10 years founding and running a company that developed and sold various computer technologies.

The point is, she had an awesome CV of the kind that would have gotten her into most graduate programs -- a record that would have been the envy of many Harvard College or MIT graduates -- prior to her association with the Extension School. Her ALB thesis advisors were a computer science instructor at the extension school (who is not on the Harvard CS faculty), and a professor at MIT, which suggests that she kept her connections to MIT before returning there. Not exactly a typical admissions pattern for the Extension School.

RubenB84

Interesting way of demeaning the HES. So because she had a great resume before going to HES, the ALB she recieved played no part in her sucess? Not to mention that Carnegie Mellon has no problem with her putting ALB Harvard University on her CV proves your point wrong about grads misrepresenting their degrees. It's also interesting that with her dazzling record she could've easily gotten into Harvard College, but chose the ES instead. Probably for financial or other personal reasons? Who knows but HES still helped her out in more ways than one.

http://www.lawyers.com/Texas/Austin/...2069263-f.html

Another example. ALB cum laude, Ohio State JD

http://johncarroll.org/students/arts_faculty.asp

Harvard ALB, MS ED Johns Hopkins

http://www.colby.edu/directory_cs/ljtaylor/
Harvard ALB, Brown MA, PhD

Marie E. Burke, A.L.B. in psychology and J.D. (Harvard University).
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1....12/admin.html

Luis Miranda received a master’s degree in professional management from the University of Miami.

J. Vin Vera earned an advanced degree at Harvard Business School.

'00 Isa Seow received a master’s degree from Cambridge University, England.

'99 Adam Cogley is pursuing an MBA at the University of North Carolina’s Kenan Flagler Business School.

'98 Caesar Sodre earned an MBA from Babson College

http://www.dce.harvard.edu/pubs/alum/2005/31.html

The whole point siserune is that Harvard ES is really good at placing people into sweet grads schools. Thats is forte. There are a ton of grads that do. If you were to just skim through a lot of the archive alumni bulletins you would see that, but you are too busy demeaning the school for some strange reason. I am not here to say thats its a substitute for the College. Not at all, but for people looking to GO BACK to school, HES is one of the best out there.

RubenB84

Why are you trying to worm your way out of this one? How else were people supposed to take that line? You basically said that HES has no affiliation with Harvard and that the grads are misrepresenting the schools name just like people who graduate from Oxford Community College in Podunk, Iowa are misrepresenting the prestigous school in the UK.
How much more of this are you going to spew before you realize that you're wrong?

sakky

Well, no, that's not true. Yes, I know that's what the website says, but what can I say? The website is wrong.

What J. Vin Vera did earn at HBS is a certificate , not a degree. Specifically, in 2002, he earned the 7-week The General Manager Program (TGMP) certificate, which is part of the HBS exec-ed programs. Don't ask me how I know this - but trust me, I know. I believe I read somewhere that 75% of the applicants to the HBS exec-ed certificate programs get admitted.

http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/tgmp/

sakky

Well, no, this is not true. A significant number of classes are indeed taught by Harvard faculty. Moreover, to graduate from many HES degree programs, you do need to have taken a majority of courses taught by Harvard faculty. Hence, while there is clearly not a complete overlap of faculty, to say that there is "almost no overlap of faculty" is unfounded.

Siserune, you're simply going too far. Simply put, it's not a "lie" and it's not "fraud" to say that you did in fact study at or have a degree from Harvard when you studied/graduated from HES. Aftler all, strictly speaking, those are true statements- you did in fact study at Harvard (as HES is indeed part of Harvard). And as stated above by RubenB84, you are in fact allowed to claim a general Harvard affiliation by studying at or graduating from HES. If you don't like it, don't blame us. We didn't make the rules. Take it up with Harvard itself and ask them why HES ought to be allowed to claim a full affiliation with the rest of Harvard. Given that the extension school has been around for about a century, it sure seems to me that, for whatever reason, Harvard thinks that the extension school is a worthy division to run.

But why would Harvard require such wording? After all, no other school does. I can't think of a single school that requires that you put down the specific degree-granting body within the school from which you graduated, as opposed to the school name as a whole. For example, somebody who gets an MBA from MIT is not required to say "MBA from the MIT Sloan School of Management". He can simply say "MBA from MIT". Or even just "masters' degree from MIT". All of these would be true statements. Now, surely, that might cause confusion in the sense that you might think that such a person is a stud engineer, if he has a "master's from MIT". But he is still allowed to say it. Of course, what he cannot do is say "Master's of Science from MIT". That would indeed be a lie. But the point is, no other university requires that you put down the specific subdivision of the university that granted you the degree. I don't see why HES should be singled out.

Now, I can agree with you that surely some people are leveraging HES as an easy way to take advantage of the Harvard brand name. But again, whose fault is that? Harvard itself allows this to happen. So if you don't like it, take it up with Harvard. After all, they're the ones who make up the rules.

Besides, even if you're uncomfortable with the 'ethics of misdirection', we have to take into consideration the context involved. The fact is, a lot of people want to associate themselves with the Harvard brand name for professional purposes For example, a LOT of local people choose to become employees at Harvard (i.e. secretaries, janitors, security guards, handymen, IT staffers, etc.) just because they want to say that they work at Harvard and put Harvard on their resume. Then later in their careers, they can say things like "when I was at Harvard..." That's basically the same thing. Plenty of other people take coursework at various high-prestige schools, and then put it on their resume. For example, I know plenty of people who have taken open-enrollment executive education courses at Harvard and MIT, and then list that fact prominently on their resume.

Look, we have to be clear about what exactly a resume and a job interview really is about. A resume is a marketing document. Nothing more, nothing less. A job interview is simply a marketing opportunity. Again, nothing more, nothing less. While it's unethical to lie when you market, there is nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward and presenting yourself in the best possible light, and that may include aspects of misdirection. After all, marketing is not really about the complete truth. When you watch an ad on TV, do you really think you're getting the whole truth. Of course not - the company is only going to show you the aspects of the product that are going to entice you to want to buy it. When a restaurant advertises its food, they use tricky camera angles to make the portions look as large and as delicious as possible. When a beer company advertises, they inevitably show the "cool" lifestyle, with all of the partying and beautiful women in bikinis everywhere.

And that's perfectly acceptable. In a job interview, you are acting perfectly within bounds when you do and say whatever you need to do to get the job, without outright lying. That's part of the game. That's just good hard-nosed self-marketing. After all, think of it this way. Do you really think the employer is going to tell you the complete truth about itself? Of course not - companies are always going to present themselves in a manner that makes them look desirable. Hence, you are perfectly within your rights to do the same. That's how the game is played, and there's nothing wrong with that.

ske293

I don't see how anyone can get away with using their extension school degrees as Harvard College degrees on their CVs. First it should be obvious from the dates of attendance and the date of degree. Second, extension school degrees are abbreviated as "A.L.B.", bachelor of liberal arts, instead of the "A.B." given by Harvard College. If anyone uses the "A.B." instead of "A.L.B." then they really are guilty of intentional fraud, not just "self-marketing". They are crossing the line there.

But if any employer's dumb enough to get fooled, then I guess they deserve it.

RubenB84

Ske93, you're right that if they intentionally use AB instead of ALB then they're committing fraud. But if they use ALB Harvard University, then they're in the right. But with the exception of some dumb guy in VA running for office about two years ago (Wakim), I haven't seen any other incidents where this has happened. Why do people over exaggerate this claim about Extension students? The Extension School is a great program for a person to work themselves out of their mundane jobs and into a career in academia. It opens endless possibilities and I dont think people should be criticized for doing so.

And sakky, sorry for the misrepresentation, but that sole thing doesnt discount the great job others have done to get into reputable business schools.

siserune

My statement was quite true, as you might infer from the fact that the HES posters here have not challenged it (because it's accurate). If you check the HES faculty listing you will see that a rather slim fraction of the instructors are professors at Harvard. Instead, there are people with job titles like teaching assistant, instructor, preceptor, lecturer, etc --- jobs that are often filled by people without PhD's, much less Harvard tenure.

To get a bachelor's degree from HES (the ALB) you need 52 of 128 credits in "Harvard instructor" courses, which are usually people in the non-professor categories I listed above. That is neither a majority nor much of an overlap.

freedom21

Hi Folks, this is my first post in this thread. In fact, this is my first post ever in this site.

Guys, I gotta be honest with you. I have been reading the posts in this thread for last couple of days and after reading the post especially by siserune, it seems like he has some kind of personal grudge against HES. May be his girlfriend/wife (could be boyfriend/husband) ran away with a HES student or may be he has been denied admission to HES. Seriously, this is the only conclusion that can justify siserune's complete ignorant mentality.

siserune, listen dude, the poeple who are enrolled in a degree program at HES, are smart enough to realize the difference between Harvard College/HBS/KSG and HES. They know the difference between a HBS MBA and an ALM in Management. They know that their professors are people "in the non-professor categories", and trust me, they are ok with that. They are well aware of all these facts. Still they go to HES. You know why? Cause, they also know the FACT, yes, THE FACT, that HES is indeed a part of Harvard University. They know that an ALM or ALB is the only thing that they need to give an extra boost to their all ready established career or the overall admission process for a higher degree. They know that once they are passed the "easy" admission process, HES gives them the golden opportunity to be a part of this great institution.

All the posts in this thread (except the first one) can be categorized in two sets of facts. One set proves the differences between the Harvard Extension School and the rest of Harvard where the other set reiterate the fact that HES is a part of Harvard Community. Both sets are true. Both these sets have hardcore evidence, stats, examples to support the arguments. Now siserune, tell me something, wouldn’t it be better to be a part of Harvard rather being a stupid, completely ignorant and jealous about the people who got/or seeking admission to a School at Harvard?

I don’t know about you man, but I think it is better to get a degree from one of Harvard’s schools rather *****ing about it.

siserune

The woman you cited has about a dozen versions of her resume posted on the internet: speaker bios at conferences, several versions of the CV on her own website, CMU faculty listing, etc. None of these documents contains the words "Extension School" or "Extension Studies", which are what appear on the ALB diploma. It is easy to find documents where she or CMU advertise her connections to Harvard and MIT, but none where they indicate that the Harvard connection was to HES.

HES, on the other hand, proudly lists her as an alumna, and HES/DCE web sites are the only places where one can find her Extension affiliation mentioned. So it seems the love runs only in one direction.

This pattern is absolutely typical, as you can see by performing a web search for "ALB Harvard" and count how the hits go down when you add the words "Extension School" or "Extension Studies". Lots of CVs with the first come up, but almost none come up that explicitly list the affiliation to the Extension School. This is different from all the other schools at Harvard; people with certificates from the Education or Divinity schools (not exactly the height of prestige or admissions difficulty by Harvard grad school standards) almost always list those schools along with the degree. It is different with the Extension School.

freedom21

“CMU advertise her connections to Harvard and MIT, but none where they indicate that the Harvard connection was to HES”

Why would CMU do that? The person has a degree which was granted by one of the Schools of Harvard University. This statement is right, completely legal and absolutely true. That should be enough! If CMU does not have a problem with it, why do you?

siserune

Really? Can you quote what was "basically said" so we can see whether that paraphrase has any connection to reality?

It is interesting how the anger here is directed at imagined wrong statements tearing down HES, personal speculations about motives, etc, but not the actual (and apparently factually correct) statements that were posted.

RubenB84

siserune, please stop acting like your Galileo being attacked by the Inquisitor. I challenged your positions directly while likewise questioning your motives because of your complete lack of information concerning HES.


http://www.lacknergroup.com/HarvardC...WPa_ByName.pdf

List of grads from the West Penn Harvard Club. She is listed on page 12, middle row. It clearly states her school as Extension. But this is beyond the point, sis. the point is that noting that you received your bachelors from the Extension School is as unnecessary as any student mentioning they received their BA from Harvard College or their MA from Harvard Graduate School. I don’t see why this is such a difficult notion for you to grasp.

The Harvard Gazette mentions the graduates of both the ALB and ALM programs every year.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...extprizes.html

Harvard Magazine always includes Extension alumni if you were to search out their website:
David Burzillo, A.L.M. ’92
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/2007/...dge-02138.html

Harvard Club of the UK
It seems that they even let ALB grads run the clubs design:
http://clubs.harvard.edu/olc/pub/HAA...jsp?chapter=64
Andrew Horwitz ALB 1993

Harvard College Law Society:
It seems that they let John H. Silva publish in their journal and affiliate himself with the Extension School without prejudice.
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/law/HCLJ.pdf

Shall I continue Siserune? It seems that you have no more points to make. Harvard shows love to their Extension students.

siserune

Thanks for making my point. Harvard alumni organizations ask for and verify your school affiliation within the university, years of attendance, and sometimes even the undergraduate house. Harvard alumni directories give this information for each person listed, just as the Harvard magazine and Harvard Gazette will list Extension graduates as such ("Joe X, A.L.B '93"). So in those situations there isn't the option of revealing or concealing the Extension School affiliation.

The question for this thread was what HES alumni do when there is the option of revealing or concealing. The answer is that, almost 100 percent of the time, they will be very forthcoming about being affiliated with Harvard and very quiet about being affiliated with the Extension School. You claim that the CMU professor and her department "have no problem" listing an HES degree on her CV, but somehow on all her many resumes available on the Internet it is nowhere mentioned that her degree is from the Extension School or in Extension Studies. Harvard Extension is eager to cite her in its marketing material, but she doesn't reciprocate that eagerness to advertise herself (outside of HES web sites) as an Extension School affiliate. That is what was meant by "the love runs only in one direction".

The CMU professor is the norm, not the exception, in this respect. I don't know of any other program at Harvard where this kind of dualism is common.

RubenB84

What do you mean I proved your point? The whole point I and plenty others were trying to make here is that the Extension School is simply distinguished with the ALB or the ALM. Grads are supposed to state that and thats they've been doing all along. The CMU professor states on her CV that she recieved her ALB from Harvard University which is exactly what she is supposed to state. She doesnt have to mention that she graduated from HES because its already insinuated in her degree as it is an ALB NOT AB. To put extension studies is beside the point.
I think you are really confused, sisrune. All of the examples of grads I have provided state their degrees as what Harvard would list them under. You know every single time I tear down one of your arguments, you just bring up a new one. Whats next sisrune?