Harvard Extension School - Page 3

siserune · 06-01-2007, 02:20 AM

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What do you mean I proved your point?

You posted further evidence that the only time people specifically disclose their affiliation to the Extension School is when they don't have a choice about it. The lack of choice could arise because some Harvard entity (alumni club, etc) chooses the description for them, or because there is no substitute phrase that excludes the words "Extension" and "Continuing Education", but either way, few people make a point of mentioning HES per se. It's interesting that Harvard doesn't require the words "Extension School" to be mentioned, but that doesn't explain why people never elect to mention it when the option is there --- that kind of studious avoidance just isn't the case for the Education School, Divinity School, Design School, Kennedy School, Business School, or any other branch of Harvard that I've ever heard of.

As to the usage of A.L.B, it is relatively obscure and is understood clearly only by the tiny minority of the population who know it to be associated with HES. Even at Harvard that's a minority, though not a tiny one. Most Harvard students would not necessarily know that an ALB or ALM is an Extension School degree, it could conceivably be from any of the graduate schools or even an undergraduate degree (not all of which are AB's). So this idea that all is made transparent by adding the magic letter "L" in the middle of the initials is a bit ridiculous, even if it is in compliance with Harvard's institutional policy. The point that you have totally failed to answer, which has been stated from my first post in the thread, is that the HES affiliates deliberately play on the unclarity and the obscurity of the situation.

freedom21 · 06-01-2007, 10:41 AM

Hey siserune, you said

"As to the usage of A.L.B, it is relatively obscure and is understood clearly only by the tiny minority of the population who know it to be associated with HES. Even at Harvard that's a minority"

How do you know that? I mean where the hell do you get information like this? Do you just made up stuff like this in the inane mind of yours only for the sake of argument? By making statements like this, you are just proving the level of your ignorance. Be honest, you have no practical experience with getting admission to Harvard or getting a job or writing a resume, in any possible way, do you?

I think people like you are not only just extremely jealous of other’s successes but also are paranoid that smart, hardworking people are getting ahead of you by getting a Harvard degree.

Dude, putting “Harvard Extension School” in one’s resume (or in anywhere else in that matter) does NOT deteriorate one’s Harvard Degree in anyway. It’s a matter of perception and presentation that dictates one’s decision of mentioning or not mentioning HES in his/her resume. It really does not matter if a person is mentioning HES, what matters is the Degree itself, a Harvard Degree.

Harvard Extension School is a school of Harvard University just like Harvard Business School, Harvard Divinity School or Harvard Medical School. Regardless a person mentions Harvard Extension School in his/her resume or not; the ALB/ALM is an officially authorized, genuine degree granted by Harvard University. As long as the person knows why he/she is getting an ALB/ALM for (which actually applies to all degrees), he/she can use the Degree from HES as effectively as any other degrees granted by Harvard.

If the people who are students at HES do not have a problem with this, if the institution, Harvard itself, does not have a problem with this, if the employers/other Ivy leagues that are hiring/admitting grads straight out from HES, do not have a problem with this, why do you?

Oh! Hold On, I know the answer, you are suffering from severe case of “Inferiority Complex”

RubenB84 · 06-01-2007, 03:03 PM

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You posted further evidence that the only time people specifically disclose their affiliation to the Extension School is when they don't have a choice about it. The lack of choice could arise because some Harvard entity (alumni club, etc) chooses the description for them, or because there is no substitute phrase that excludes the words "Extension" and "Continuing Education", but either way, few people make a point of mentioning HES per se. It's interesting that Harvard doesn't require the words "Extension School" to be mentioned, but that doesn't explain why people never elect to mention it when the option is there --- that kind of studious avoidance just isn't the case for the Education School, Divinity School, Design School, Kennedy School, Business School, or any other branch of Harvard that I've ever heard of.

Ok Siserune, lets recap because you are either confused about this issue or are deliberately distorting to your own advantage. I think its both but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are confused about it.
The Extension School is a part of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, so it is run like both the College and the Graduate School. College grads usually, but not always put AB Harvard University on their resume. MA grads usually put Harvard University as well, not the specific college. You in turn are putting rules designated for specific schools (Business, Education, Design), not associated with FAS, on to HES. That's your mistake. You are still treating the ES as a separate entity on its own without affiliation to Harvard or the FAS.
Now, the reason why alumni clubs and organizations state the college of the graduates is simply for verification purposes. It lets others know what college they attended and were affiliated with at Harvard. Its not because the graduates were forced into it or were exposed, but because the rules apply to ALL Harvard graduates. Extension students have no qualms with being mentioned as extension students among Harvard alumni. When out in the workforce, they can put Extension School on their resume but usually do not considering that the vast majority of graduates from the FAS likewise DO NOT. I think that your prejudice towards the Extension School blinds your logic and makes you dismiss the same judgment you use on the ES on other grads from FAS.
Would you put this much strain on someone who received an MA (terminal or not) in Government from the political science department at FAS, but did not specify whether he got it at the Kennedy School or not on his resume? Because I can tell you that that is as much a qualm some people have about poli sci. majors as the fuss you make about extension students.

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As to the usage of A.L.B, it is relatively obscure and is understood clearly only by the tiny minority of the population who know it to be associated with HES. Even at Harvard that's a minority, though not a tiny one. Most Harvard students would not necessarily know that an ALB or ALM is an Extension School degree, it could conceivably be from any of the graduate schools or even an undergraduate degree (not all of which are AB's). So this idea that all is made transparent by adding the magic letter "L" in the middle of the initials is a bit ridiculous, even if it is in compliance with Harvard's institutional policy. The point that you have totally failed to answer, which has been stated from my first post in the thread, is that the HES affiliates deliberately play on the unclarity and the obscurity of the situation.

Again, see post above. So because it’s a minority that knows this it must be a ploy of deception perpetrated by deceitful extension grads? I think that you came in here with a presupposition that the Extension Schools is such a lowly school in comparison to the other colleges, that anything contrary to what you perceive about it is considered shameless apologizing. You have demonstrated that you know nothing about the Extension School or Harvard’s policies. So you’re insisting that because the general populace is not educated on Harvard degrees that Extension Students should be obligated to reveal their college when its perfectly fine for College and other grads of FAS not to? Shows your bias and your train of logic. Do us all a favor and quit now, siserune.

sakky · 06-01-2007, 06:22 PM

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This pattern is absolutely typical, as you can see by performing a web search for "ALB Harvard" and count how the hits go down when you add the words "Extension School" or "Extension Studies". Lots of CVs with the first come up, but almost none come up that explicitly list the affiliation to the Extension School. This is different from all the other schools at Harvard; people with certificates from the Education or Divinity schools (not exactly the height of prestige or admissions difficulty by Harvard grad school standards) almost always list those schools along with the degree.

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hat kind of studious avoidance just isn't the case for the Education School, Divinity School, Design School, Kennedy School, Business School, or any other branch of Harvard that I've ever heard of.

Uh, no they don't. Speaking of the Ed School specifically, trust me, I know PLENTY of instances of people getting degrees from the Harvard Ed School who choose not to list their affiliation.

Consider this case of Bob Muldoon, who was laid off during the dotcom bust.

""It was quite a contrast from even a year before, when recruiters were swarming like locusts," said Muldoon, who went to prestigious prep schools and has master's degrees from Columbia and Harvard. "

Of course what the article doesn't mention is that his Harvard master's degree is an Ed.M. from the Ed School. Trust me, I know.

Or consider Lynn D'Ambrose, who is also mentioned in the Nellie Mae Foundation as having a mysterious "master's from Harvard". Checking around, I discover that that master's from Harvard is, again, an Ed.M. from the Harvard GSE. Interestingly enough, she also has listed another master's from Harvard, but this time being from KSG. Apparently she has no problem with a press release that openly affiliates her with KSG. But not from the Ed School.

http://www.nmefdn.org/NewsandEvents/...NewsandEvents/

What's even more ironic is that the Nellie Mae Foudation is a charity focused on education. So you would think that if any degree ought to be openly publicized, it would be her education degree. But nope, that's not what happened. She is working for an education charity, she actually has an education degree, but she apparently would rather be known as just having a mysterious "master's from Harvard'.

Look, I think we can all agree that HES is not as prominent as some of the other schools as Harvard, and that an ALB is not as strong of a credential as an AB from Harvard. I think nobody disputes this.

But the truth of the matter is, Harvard has many different programs with varying selectivity and difficulty. Yet all of them are considered to be part of Harvard.

Personally, I would argue that if there is ANY programs at Harvard that you should be concerned about, it's the exec-education programs run at Harvard Business School. These programs are generally only a few months long, with no grading. Yet these programs hand out certificates of completion and the more expensive ones will actually grant you HBS alumni status, including placing your name in the alumni database and a lifetime HBS alumni email address. Nor are they particularly difficult to get admitted to - I seem to recall reading somewhere how some of them have 75%+ admissions rates. At least the extension school requires that you pass actual coursework that takes you years to complete. The HBS exec ed programs don't even require that.

http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/gmp/alumni.html

Look, the truth is, I think there is little dispute that the HBS exec-ed programs are riding off the HBS brand name. A big reason why people attend these programs is to just say that they "studied" at HBS. But, HBS is allowed to run these programs. If you don't like it, you should take it up with HBS.

RubenB84 · 06-01-2007, 08:18 PM

wow. sakky coming in out of nowhere. great post!

siserune · 06-01-2007, 09:33 PM

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Speaking of the Ed School specifically, trust me, I know PLENTY of instances of people getting degrees from the Harvard Ed School who choose not to list their affiliation.

Your examples were where somebody other than the alumnus (e.g., the corporate Public Relations department, the journalist writing an article) chose the description. If you look for what people report about themselves on CV's, a web search for "CV M.Ed Harvard University" shows that most people indeed list the degree as being from Harvard University Graduate School of Education. This is nothing like the pattern for HES: thousands of hits listing Harvard University and almost *zero* (outside of Harvard web sites) listing the Extension School.

RubenB84 · 06-02-2007, 01:20 AM

siserune, while sakky used the example of a school OUTSIDE of FAS as an example, you still neglected my point that an extension student doesnt have to mention the extension school like a graduate of the College and a graduate of GSAS doesnt have to mention their respective schools. And when both the College and GSAS grad do mention it, it's the same as when an Extension Student happens to mention his affiliation with Harvard.

Its a lot simpler than you're making it out to be.

siserune · 06-02-2007, 02:28 AM

The claim you are contesting was not about Harvard institutional policy, but about people's behavior. Do they give their affiliation as just "Harvard" rather than something more precise, do they prefer (or not exactly object) to be mistaken for College matriculants rather than HES admits, and so on. Those assertions, whether correct or not, are not about Harvard's policies. Citing the policy is partly relevant, but does not come close to explaining the behavior.

Let's take a simple example to make clear the distinction. Michael Shinagel, who is dean of the Extension School and DCE, proposed recently to change HES diplomas to list the field of study instead of "Extension Studies". Both the Harvard faculty and College students (or at least, the UC) objected to such a measure, as it would create confusion between HES degrees and other Harvard degrees.

Now, suppose that the proposal had been in the other direction: to change Harvard's policy so that HES degrees must be reported as "ALB, Harvard Extension School". Is it your claim that nobody at HES would possibly object to this, since all that they ever do in describing their Harvard affiliation is just an innocent reflection of whatever Harvard's policy happens to be? That's in effect what you've been claiming, and it is totally unbelievable. What is much more likely is that there would be an enormous level of opposition from HES students to such a proposal, as highlighting the Extension aspect would reduce the value of their degree.

freedom21 · 06-02-2007, 11:06 AM

Hey siserune, first of all, Michael Shinagel did not propose "recently", he made the proposal last year April. The UC had surely questioned his suggestion (as they do for anything) but also agreed and supported his proposal. Don’t just talk form your behind; do your homework before you speak!

Even if the proposal was to change Harvard's policy to make HES degrees report as "ALB, Harvard Extension School", it still will be a degree granted by one of Harvard's Schools (same as AB/AM etc.) and I don’t think anybody with a the minimal ability to think will realize this fact.

Only people like you, who suffer form serious case of Inferiority Complex and argue just for the sake of arguments, will try to make something completely stupid, irrelevant and dumb out of this.

RubenB84 · 06-02-2007, 01:54 PM

siserune, the policy you still seek to ignore is central to my point and the sole reason for understanding why the Extension School doesnt have to mention its college when stating the degrees it confers. First off, the proposal wasnt considered because it would be harder to distinguish between two seperate schools within the FAS. The College and the Extension School are two seperate schools in the greater umbrella of the FAS and Harvard University. The measure was just to keep the distinction between the two schools. I do not have a problem with that.
Secondly, you are trying to make sense of a flawed position by insisting that HES students should be required to put ES after their degrees because it's supposed to be more exact in your world. This isnt so. The proposal you put out is absurd because NO other college within the FAS is required to put down their name of their college after their degree. That would be putting demands on a college that are not put on the other colleges in the FAS. You are clearly discriminating against the Extension School.

You just cleary cannot stand the way you believe Extension grads are getting away with ommitting Extension School after their degrees. You think its wrong and decietful. But it is perfectly legitimate and expected of them from the University itself. If an Extension grad WANTS to put Extension School after his degree, then more power to him, the University will not stop him or discourage from doing so. You on the other hand have such a low view of the school, and cannot believe that a college with such "lax" admission standards can get away with NOT distinguishing itself as an Extension School and affiliate itself with such a prestigious institution so easily. That's what your real beef with the ES is.

clickpunch · 06-04-2007, 03:48 AM

What an excellent posts. I thank you all for the discussion. As for myself, I'm a recent graduate of HES, earning an ALM in IT degree. By officially graduating, I received an official letter from HAA, congratulating and welcoming me to the enormous and proud Harvard Alumni Association. The other part of the letter, or rather a packet, included two ballots, one to cast a vote to elect 5 members of Harvard Board of Overseers, and the other to elect 6 members of Harvard Alumni Association Board of Directors, which I gladly gave my fullest attention and carefully cast my votes, all for the future stake of Harvard University enlarge. Now, who is left out? By becoming a lifetime member of Harvard Alumni Association, you have all benefits and privileges that it provides, including lifetime email service to @ post.harvard.edu and ability to participate any local/global alumni activities which is promptly alerted through email service.

As far as academics go, I was in Software Engineering concentration, which requires 5 core courses and 3 out of 5 courses were taught by renowned Harvard tenured professors: Harry Lewis’s Formal Systems and Computation (a former dean of Harvard College who have been teaching this courses since the dawn of the computing age), Michael Mitzenmacher’s Algorithms and Data Structures, R. Victor Jones’s Communication Systems and Technology (a former dean of Graduate School of Arts and Science). I still cannot forget my days and hours taking these courses. So much challenging that I barely slept to finish my Problem Sets. The courses offered so much depth and pushed their subjects to the limit. All these, I don’t think, can be achievable for a guy who has two kids to raise, a full time job to report to, and not to mention the limited salary that I make and to live by. What an incredible opportunity that Harvard has given me, I’ve been practically reborn. After going through such challenges, now I don’t think anything is impossible. It is only matter of effort and passion. This is what Harvard and its finest school(to me), Extension School has taught me throughout the years. Best of all, and thanks to the most praised online distance video courses that has been recorded of the real lectures a day or two ago, I was able to take the courses after putting kids to sleep, that is around 11pm-3am, or if I want to be an earlybird 3am-7am; you ask me? what a freedom! Also, you are entitled to same Teaching Assistance privileges, and they are no less than excellent. One of the TA would instantly email me back to the questions that I just emailed. I don’t see anything I’m missing. I got the same test that daytime students were getting, and I was able to pull off B+. If I could pull it off, that means anyone could, it is just matter of how much time and passion you want to devote to the course, all for the third of the cost! Incredible!!

If anyone is so sure that getting a degree in HES is an “easy” ride (I’m not sure how other degrees are), just try and see for yourself. Attend the courses, finish the Problem Sets, and you will hold your tongue and you will not joke any longer (not to mention my 10 month thesis period I had to go through). The courses are as rigorous as any other courses and even due in part to its "liberal" nature, offering many practical courses that you can use in your job. HES also continuously revamp their course offerings by adding brand new courses each year. I’m back in New York, and there is not a single school that offers such prestigious, rigorous, and yet affordable degree.

In coming June 7th graduation, I received three tickets to the commencement services. First is the traditional Harvard University morning exercise, which the University dean grants the degree at school level, which HES students are clearly recognized and awarded with the degree. Then actual degree receiving ceremony with dean Michael Shinagel is separately held, and finally an afternoon exercise which Harvard Alumni Association president goes overt alumni matters, where Bill Gates will make 30 min. speech. Now, am I missing anything? Rather, I’m psyched and excited to my roof, honored, and thankful to Harvard Community thousand times. Cheers!!!!!

freedom21 · 06-04-2007, 10:15 AM

Hi clickpunch, first of all, Congratulations!!

I dont have any personal experience but I am certain that it takes a lot of discipline and dedication to earn a Harvard Degree specially while maintaining a fulltime job and a family. Now, tell us more, how does it feel to be called a Harvard Graduate (Oopps..siserune's tiny brain just exploded..lol)?

"I got the same test that daytime students were getting" - I absolutely agree with clickpunch. I know many people who are taking/already took classes at HES in different programs (i.e. Psychology, Government, Journalism, Information Management Systems concentration etc.) and all of them say the same thing. The syllabus, course work, homework, problem sets, projects, deadlines, research, exams everything are ditto as the day class. The only different is one of the course is offered in the daytime and the other is offered at night/evening.

Anyway, folks, please join me in congratulating clickpunch on his achievement, a Harvard Degree!

sakky · 06-05-2007, 08:33 PM

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Your examples were where somebody other than the alumnus (e.g., the corporate Public Relations department, the journalist writing an article) chose the description

Such press reports are almost always based on what the individual in question wanted the press report or article to say. For example, most corporate PR departments will specifically ask what an employee wants their bio to say and then, subject to fact-checking, will just print it verbatim. Rarely if ever will they just print something of their own accord.

But anyway, even if you were right, and it was a decision made by the PR department or the journalist to 'conceal' a particular Harvard degree from KSG or GSE, then that only begs the question of why? .

In other words, instead of having the individual in question concealing a particular Harvard degree fomr GSE or KSG, you now have people who are once-removed (the PR department, the journalist, etc.) now trying to conceal a particular Harvard degree from GSE or KSG. But that's a distinction without a difference. Either way, looks like somebody out there is attempting to conceal. What does it matter WHO is trying to conceal it? All that matters is that SOMEBODY is trying to conceal it, and that begs the question of why. So evidently, somebody feels that an affiliation with KSG or GSE is not worth mentioning.

sakky · 06-05-2007, 08:55 PM

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Let's take a simple example to make clear the distinction. Michael Shinagel, who is dean of the Extension School and DCE, proposed recently to change HES diplomas to list the field of study instead of "Extension Studies". Both the Harvard faculty and College students (or at least, the UC) objected to such a measure, as it would create confusion between HES degrees and other Harvard degrees.

Yes, and this is no different from all of the other political jockeying and infighting that goes on in Harvard. Each particular subdivision of Harvard jealously guards its turf. For example, when Harvard Business School wanted to create a doctoral program in information technology, the Harvard Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences (DEAS) objected, saying that they either wanted to be intimately involved with such a project (because it was heavily tech oriented), or that HBS should drop the project. The compromise solution was that HBS and DEAS negotiated to create the interdisciplinary ITM (Information Technology & Management) PhD program.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/itm/

The point is, no division at Harvard is going to want to let another division of Harvard intrude on its turf by creating confusion. DEAS didn't want to let HBS solely run a program that sounded like an engineering/tech program.

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Now, suppose that the proposal had been in the other direction: to change Harvard's policy so that HES degrees must be reported as "ALB, Harvard Extension School". Is it your claim that nobody at HES would possibly object to this, since all that they ever do in describing their Harvard affiliation is just an innocent reflection of whatever Harvard's policy happens to be? That's in effect what you've been claiming, and it is totally unbelievable. What is much more likely is that there would be an enormous level of opposition from HES students to such a proposal, as highlighting the Extension aspect would reduce the value of their degree.

Of course! And I'm sure the same would be true if Harvard forced all of the GSE graduates to list their degrees as specifically coming from GSE - you would have plenty of opposition coming from GSE students. Let's be honest, a lot of GSE students are there just because they ride off the Harvard brand name. There's nothing wrong with that, that's just how it is. The same is true of KSG. The same is true of HBS with the exec-ed programs - I think there is little dispute that what the exec-ed programs are really selling is the HBS brand name. People want to go to the exec-ed programs mostly because they want to be able to SAY that they studied at HBS. That's why the exec-ed programs can charge so much money.

Look, the truth of the matter is, of ALL of Harvard's programs - whether they are the less selective ones like HES or GSE, or the most selective ones like HBS or HMS or HLS - plenty of students are just there because of the Harvard brand name. If Harvard didn't have that big brand name, fewer people in EVERY ONE of Harvard's programs would want to go there. So why single out HES on this score? Furthermore, like I said, there are some Harvard programs (i.e. GSE) that are less prominent than other programs, and hence you could say that ALL of the less prominent programs are riding off the the slipstream of the more prominent programs. So, again, why single out HES?

siserune · 06-09-2007, 10:02 AM

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[Extension School dean] Michael Shinagel ... made the proposal last year April. The UC had surely questioned his suggestion (as they do for anything) but also agreed and supported his proposal.

No, the UC denounced Shinagel's proposal. A committee of the UC unanimously recommended, and the UC passed by a margin of about 10-to-1, an "affirmation of the integrity of FAS degrees" strongly opposing the proposed removal of the words Extension Studies from the HES degrees.
The resolution can be found at:

http://www.uc.fas.harvard.edu/counci...20Sciences.pdf

Excerpt: "whereas the integrity of perception of the [Harvard College A.B.] degree may, in some contexts, be jeopardized if the expressed specificity of similar degrees granted for extension studies by Harvard Extension School is diminished ... be it therefore resolved that the Harvard Undergraduate Council
express[es] its opposition to the proposed diminution of specificity on degrees granted in extension studies ... "

The Harvard Crimson quoted a professor, who had attended the faculty council where Shinagel proposed the change, as objecting that "misunderstandings might occur" if reference to Extension Studies were removed:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513113