RubenB84

Siserune, if I may ask, what school do you attend? I mean your arguments are simply just incoherent to me in regards to the extension school. You say some things that make sense and then with other things it seems you pick and choose from material you've read off an article or so. And from your first couple of posts it seems like you too lack a lot of knowledge of the ES. I mean sakky and I are going in circles trying to explain the same things over and over again. We know that that there are people who dislike the idea of Harvard having a continuing ed program and that there are some who neglect to mention their affiliation with the ES. But that is beside the point. You are literally going in here and inflating the numbers of people who are "posing", negelcting to mention that half the schools at Harvard are money grubbing machines too, and are making it seem as if the whole of Harvard pushes the ES away.
Siserune, no one cares. Maybe some College kids in the UC do but the majority of the school especially the grad students could care less. Grad School isnt up in arms over the ALM. Certificate in Management degree is sought after by many international students in the business world. Is the Business School infuriated over people choosing that over their programs? No. The President of Columbia has one for petes sake.

Siserune, I would just like to know what your overall opinion is of the school. I mean you simply post what others feel about it, but in your words what it the ES to you?

datdude

Hey Ruben,
Good for you for being there (Cambridge) and getting a real account of the Extension School's reputation. I think the HES classes are very legitimate. The Annenberg School for Communication has a great program which takes students behind the scenes in the world of media and has a particularly theoretical approach to communications, but the HES courses, while different from those at UPenn (at least from Annenberg's classes), offer a very attractive course listing. The variety is hard to beat at HES.

clickpunch

It's been such a great thread that I had to check back time to time to read. I thank all of you for such interesting debate. It is very interesting how siserune would keep defending himself and degrade HES status as much as he can despite that there really isn't much to argue about the reputation of the HES. Either siserune is getting paid by collegeconfidential.com to keep the conversation running or ran into some nasty HES alumni. If latter is the case, I do apologize on behalf of that moron. I believe a degree alone cannot make a moron into a respectable human being, even if its a Harvard degree.

No one is hiding anything. Harvard University is not trying to condemn HES, nor HES trying to take over. I do see the two as a very happy marriage. You have a distance ed/continuing ed/summer school that offers awesome classes in almost half the price, in that rest of the school do not have to have their own "distance ed" program.

No matter, HES is growing ever more. In the recent Harvard Magazine (a magazine for Harvard Alumni, which I receive quarterly after getting an ALM degree), HES ran a full-cover ad on the backcover. Boy, am I proud to see that.

Since my graduation, I've been looking into other distance ed program from various colleges and universities, and I can tell you that nothing gives more prestige and yet cost effective than HES, and I hail Harvard for pioneering such program!

Look, why would Harvard University, and its governing board, which consists of the most brightest people in the globe do anything to hurt its brand? HES has been legit ever since its inception back in 1906 (http://extension.harvard.edu/2007-08.../tradition.jsp). What's there to argue about? Its been founded by one of the notable president of the Harvard, Lawrence Lowell. HES didn't born out of nowhere. It's been "A Tradition!" of Harvard.

Again, I'm just glad that Harvard community gave me opportunity to learn from the best with such a reasonable price tag and I will do everything I can to excel and live upto the brand it has established for over 356 years. So should you! Cheers!

brandon_ruse

I've completed a few courses now at HES and after all this banter here about whether it's real or worthwhile... you know what, it's education and that's the key to being successful. It's hard enough to continue when you're working full time and struggling to keep up with responsibilities. I wish that there would be more understanding of that and also respect for those of us who are working hard.

You know, I'll admit I did want just the Harvard name at first but as I grew through the academics and challenges I've learned that the name is just a small portion of the education, it is far more about personal growth and academic development and how you will impact the world with the education you are given. I've kept a good GPA while working full time and working towards my degree. I never knew when I moved here that I'd be where I'm at; starting a national and global outreach program for orphans and foster kids and looking at Medical School. I've met many people who have worked and struggled just as I have. I have very deep rooted respect for these people. I think we deserve the respect we've worked for. I wish most of you would understand that there are those of us who work to the best of our abilities and want this opportunity to take us far.

Academically, I'm not the smartest of the bunch. Well, actually, I didn't do so well before throughout my high school due to my own laziness and issues of my home life and loss of parents and such but, now that I've been to Extension and on my own, I've learned that this is my fight and it's 'the good fight'. Until you walk in the shoes of those who struggle every year to complete a degree while trying to pay bills, take care of people, and volunteer, I don't think you get an accurate representation of the people who do attempt to complete these degrees.

In all places there are phonies but the problem here lies with those who try to stereotype all of us as that way. I'm in it for the long haul and the long term and I'm here as a blessing and I believe I will do great things with the knowledge I've aquired. Sure, I didn't have a perfect SAT or whatever but there are different intrinsic values that make sense and are evident in the students at Extension. Just remember that not all of us are equal and we are all working towards our own goals and dreams. Remember this quote:

"If we are to be really great people, we must strive in good faith to play a great part in the world. We cannot avoid meeting great issues. All that we can determine for ourselves is whether we shall meet them well or ill."Theodore Roosevelt

debate

"Nevertheless after graduation I wanted to look into the "ALM' which annoyingly stands for the masters in liberal arts. The peculiar thing about most Harvard extension courses is that their class time per week is 2 hours as opposed to Tufts courses which are 2 hours and thirty minutes per week. That extra half an hour adds up! The difference is about 7 hours that when you think about it, it's like taking three weeks off at Tufts."--lordalabaster

It seems you are SO WORRIED that you would not fulfill the rigorous course/grade requirements with the 2-hour/session class time. Maybe you WORRY about NOT being able to get into the ALM program, so it annoys you so much.

The quality of an education has to do with many other factors (such as the teaching ability of the faculty/professors, structure of the lectures, and other available resources) than mere class hours!!! Oh, come on! This is a college/university (for advanced degrees), not a primary/middle school, in which you depend so much on the minutes/hours being fed by your teachers. You need to be actively engaged in your learnings through various means.

Also, the hours depend on the subject matters, natures, and levels of the courses. I took courses that required an extra two-hour session following each two-hour class session at HES.

The "easiness/rigor" of the course depends on its level, subject matter, and your own academic background/aptitude/attitude. You could NOT compare the courses from two institutions unless you hold the SAME metrics in the measurement with comparable factors/variables.

By the way, the "harder" is not always better. Editing with the computer is so much EASIER for me than editing with pen and paper. Innovation and technology is about making people "easy" and smart!

"The courses that do have close to three hours per week (at the extension school) are the premed courses like chemistry and physics. Now why is that?
Is it because it is Harvard's best interest not to cheapen out on the premed students so that they can do well on the MCAT? I would say yes because if premed students were to only get 2 hours of instruction per week they would get screwed on the MCAT."--lordalabaster

This opinion sounds RIDICULOUS to me. HES has prepared successful candidates for many other GRADUATE programs (Ph.Ds and Masters) and PROFESSIONS (CEOs, Presidents, Artists, and Scientists) other than just medical schools.

You also sound contradicted about the various hours of the "premed" courses and its MCAT "scheme." Don't you know that BIOLOGY is a big part in the MCAT? Don't you remember you just talked about how "easy" it is? Oh, by the way, you should know that physics just plays a small part in MCAT.
(Again, the quality of an education depends on many other factors than mere instruction hours.)

JohnC613

i agree that it is rather gross to knowingly mislead people by stating "Harvard University." getting into Harvard College vs getting into HES are two totally different stories, my friends.

debate

No one is trying to mislead anyone by saying going to "Harvard University" while attending HES, which is one of the nine schools under the university's umbrella.

It is GROSS to hear people's ignorant disclaiming about such FACT.

Maybe you SHOULD know that there are other schools (including HES) in Harvard University award more advanced degrees than Harvard College.

I feel GROSS for the people who could NOT get in and graduate from HES (GET IN does not mean just taking a few courses, but being admitted to the Degree Programs.) to denigrate the school and its virtue.

drohde

It is not misleading to claim attendance at 'Harvard University' when explaining your A.L.M. degree. In this case it would be misleading and wrong to say you attended 'Harvard College' when you hadn't.

This whole debate seems silly. I am a 25 year old expatriate starting my first course (of the three required for admission into the A.L.M. in Management program) on the 23rd of next month. I am doing this because I live in Istanbul and work as a marketing director for a software company. My position takes me to a new international setting each month and, for this reason, I found that the A.L.M. accommodates my situation perfectly. I will be moving to Cambridge with my wife on June of 2009 to fulfill the (at least) six required on-campus courses. In the meantime, I will continue to work in an international capacity while watching the lectures and completing the assignments.

I agree with some of the earlier submissions in this thread. I think that the HES provides non-traditional students with an excellent opportunity to increase their professional breadth while not facing the full-time limitations that students at traditional colleges face. For me, HES provides a way to maintain my position while simultaneously earning a graduate degree in business management. When asked about being a student, I have no problem saying the degree comes from the extension school. However, I have found that few people who ask such questions really want a detailed response. Since the degree actually comes from Harvard University (this cannot be debated), it is not deceitful to provide this answer and is certainly sufficient.

I think that as technology brings e-learning to a broader audience, more people will lose this fear of the unknown and come to accept these degrees as comparative in quality and rigor. Besides, HES obviously has the support of the greater university - it seems that those most passionate about disparaging the HES are the people most insecure about their own education and position. I would have no problem weighing my salary against that of a Harvard college graduate if, in this case, success is defined as earning power.

One last thing, it seems really unfortunate that HES students are talked down to on these forums. Imagine some person who, after doing well enough in their first three courses to gain admission into the program, visits a site like this and sees how they are automatically criminalized as frauds. It is extremely rude and presumptive to think that HES students are, as a whole, trying to accomplish anything beyond passing their classes and earning their degree. They, as all people attempting to better themselves through education, should be applauded for their efforts.

compmom

HES provides a really great service to the community, similar to extension schools/continuing education at many colleges and universities. It is extremely affordable. I have not found any other schools with so many excellent online courses, which are convenient to people who work and have families. HES provides scholarships to high schoolers taking classes there, and many home-schooled students avail themselves of HES classes. Older, "non-traditional" students who were not able to attend college on a campus for 4 years, are also well-served. The population of students who do the "traditional" 4 years on a residential campus is actually quite small, and HES was originally founded to share Harvard resources with the community, particularly in the days when Harvard was not especially diverse economically.

When I visited HES, I was surprised to find so many people at the information session who were concerned with prestige. People asked a lot of questions about how the HES degree was perceived, and even whether it was stigmatized. These questions felt insulting to the hard-working folks who take a class or two at a time while handling a lot of responsibility in their lives. But, at the same time, it is obvious that HES is not Harvard,and that some people want the affiliation for resume or false bragging purposes.

I was admitted to Ivies at 18, way back in 1969. I did not go, due to a parent's death, and the social chaos of the "sixties." When I returned to school in my 50's, I looked at HES but decided on UMass Boston instead, mainly because UMass if more flexible (I can go during the day, at night, or weekends), but I appreciated the option of HES. I just wanted to get a degree, and was excited about learning after so many years working and raising kids. Name doesn't matter to me, but quality does, and UMass is great.

It is the people who want to say they go to Harvard, when they are really in an open-admissions HES, who are creating this problem. However, the efforts of those who are really committed to learning at HES, rather than the idea of being at Harvard, need to be honored as much as the efforts of the traditional students, who sometimes have had things handed to them on a platter, relatively speaking.

The mystique of Harvard is ridiculous. My middle child is going there next fall, and we are so tired of the absurd responses to this news, that we avoid telling anyone as much as we can. I guess you could say that those who wear Harvard sweatshirts probably aren't going there. The desire to publicly associate oneself with Harvard, evidenced by some CC posters, is actually pretty alien to a lot of H. College students and families.

sakky

I think this is the crux of the problem, although it may just be a question of semantics. Look, HES is Harvard, whether we like it or not. It's not Harvard College, but it's still Harvard. Hence, it's not correct to say that HES is not Harvard, because it is Harvard. It is not a lie when people who go to HES say they go to Harvard because HES is Harvard. Maybe one can argue that it shouldn't be part of Harvard, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is part of Harvard, whether we like it or not.

div_student

Of course there is nothing at all disingenuous about saying you go/went to Harvard University if you are in HES. Not in the slightest bit. I'm not a student at HES, but since it is affiliated with the university, it only makes plain sense to anyone at all that it is fine to say "Harvard University."

Harvard students will specify their school affiliation when the context is appropriate. However, they often they will just say "Harvard." That's actually probably the most common way that people who attend any Harvard school will refer to it. Just "Harvard." Not "Harvard College" or "Harvard Law School," etc. Although, when talking amongst fellow students, say at a party or the like, the acronym form of affiliation is popular. For example, "are you HBS?" "no, HLS" etc.

But anyways, it's completely obvious that HES students can say "I go to Harvard."

thecount

I met a guy from the extension school. He had a pretty cool hairdo. That is all.

redlinekid2

Unlike Columbia GS and Penn CGS, HES will not reject your application just because you got one bad grade in a Logic class, while everything else is strong from your current school. They judge you by how well you perform in the first 3 classes, that includes the Expository writing class, which weeds a lot of students out. HES doesn't reject you based on your past record. They will only determine their decision base on whether you can do the work at HES or not. And unlike my current school that denied my the opportunity to enroll in honors classes because its part of the Honors College that is only open to top high school graduates. Those experience made me very bitter about my education experiences because I was in those classes before. But I left due to financial problems. Came back to resume my honor program committments. Only to be told that I could not enroll in honors classes. At least HES allows you to take any type of class that interests you before you apply for admission, unlike Columbia GS and Penn CGS.

stine31283

I'm sorry, but there is just so much garbage being spewed out of siserune's mouth on this thread, I figured I, as a HES student, would get on here and give my two cents as well.

But first a little history lesson.

I completed two years of BA work at a state school in Central NY, which was a great starting point, but as many "non-trads" will tell you, life got in the way and due to financial issues, and issues with the education quality of the school itself, I had to leave.

I would like to state the disclaimer now that I AM NOT "hating on" or disrespecting state schools as a whole, but my personal experience at my former school was a total joke. I went to class drunk every day and left with a 3.4. Sure, that's not THAT great, but to do absolutely nothing but party day in and day out and still pull (mostly) A's should tell you something about the level of quality acceptance this school had.

So anyway, I run out of money and my parents cut me off, presumably to teach me a valuable lesson, and there I am in the cold cruel world. So, I pick myself up off my ass, get into the healthcare field, and enter the workforce.

I am now living in Boston, with absolutely NO wishes to return to CNY to complete my degree at my former college. However, the fact that I haven't finished it is a black hole to my happiness; it's not an option...it needs to be done. Healthcare is great, but it's not where my heart is at. So, I started doing my homework and looking at schools in the area.

I'm 25 years old; I'll be 26 in March. It actually struck me as I was looking at Boston area schools to transfer to, that I am indeed now a "non-traditional" student. I work three jobs. Yes, count them. Three.

Therefore, I needed the best program possible, with the most flexibility in class scheduling, for the best price. Simply put, Extension IS that program.

So let's touch on some of the highlights I've seen in this thread that need to be addressed:

1. "There is almost no overlap of faculty, classes, or students."

~False. There are many classes are taught by Harvard faculty...in fact, it's a requirement of the degree program to take most of your classes with Harvard instructors. And quite frankly, it's YOUR money...get the most out of it, and actively seek out Harvard instructor-run classes!

~As far as students go, yeah, you're right. There isn't a lot of overlap between HC and HES students as far as them coming into our classes, but why would they? They go to HC. They are traditional aged students. I'm thinking back to my former "trad" student days, where taking class at night wasn't exactly a hot trend.

2. "The vast majority of HES students and alumni that I have met present their Harvard affiliation misleadingly (they "study at Harvard", have a "bachelor's from Harvard", etc) in a way meant to fudge the difference. Some go further and lie outright, claiming a degree or coursework, on their resumes, from "Harvard University", rather than stating HES."

~Um, you're an idiot. If you're an HES student, where else do you study? In the literal sense, all Harvard students "study" at Harvard. Why does this turn of phrase bother you?

artium
liberalim
baccalaureus

if you want to get fancy with it...they give you one in English and one in Latin! Woohoo! But however you want to spit it, it is A BACHELOR'S DEGREE. From HARVARD.

Taken from the HES website itself:

Program Contacts and FAQs : Harvard Extension School

How do I represent the degree on my résumé?

Associate in Arts (AA) or Bachelor of Liberal Arts (ALB) in Extension Studies, Harvard University.

You see there? "in Extension Studies, Harvard University." Stating that you went to Harvard University is NOT any sort of deception, because there are many different schools under the general umbrella of "Harvard University," INCLUDING HES. NOW, if you are some loose cannon, and DELIBERATELY write "AB" instead of "ALB," or actually physically STATE "Harvard College, Harvard University" then you are a liar and a fraud.

Do you honestly know how SMALL this population of dishonest HES grads is? Practically nonexistent. With the exception of a few nutjobs, (I saw that someone mentioned Michael Godlia here, Google him, it was an excellent example) we don't feel the need to lie about going to HC, because they do their thing and we do ours...but we ALL go to Harvard. End of story. Do you see some GSE or HD students hanging their heads sheepishly, saying "Well, OK. I go to Harvard Divinity/Grad School of Ed./whatever you consider to be a "soft option," so no. You're right. I'm not REALLY a Harvard student."

NO. So why should HES students do that?

3. "There is no policy that forces HES folk to omit the words Extension School in describing their affiliation. But in almost 100 percent of the cases where they have the option whether to specify or omit their ties to the Extension School, HES affiliates elect to make the omission."

~See above, taken from the 08-09 academic year HES website. It's not an option, bucko. According to Harvard, "in Extension Studies, Harvard University" is the proper CV designation. So no, that's a flat out lie.

Taken from a post by RubenB84:

"But believe me even if "extension studies" were rubbed off of the degree, it would still be significantly different because the extension degrees are missing the house masters signature, its says bachelor of liberal arts, and it is clearly signed by the dean of continuing education. So there is no counterfeiting. If a person wants to lie and say they graduated from the college, they would have to present to them a College degree, which they do not have and most likely (depending on job and grad school) their transcript which clearly reads extension school."

~Any more debate on this "HES are dishonest bandwagon jumpers" argument? Our diplomas are different for a reason- to distinguish the difference between the schools. A dishonest person may try to verbally lie, but they can't get away with it when they have a different diploma visually.


4. "Nobody should pay for an HES degree thinking they are getting an equivalent of what the general population understands as a "Harvard degree"."

Posted by RubenB84:

"First off, I DO think that HES misleads potential students. They actually mislead them into thinking that getting into the program is a cakewalk, and that finishing the degree is even easier by emphasizing "open enrollment". This is false. I personally had lunch with someone who is in the one of the degree programs and he told me that many people try and many people fail. Either way the Extension School makes money for Harvard. Why do you think the Extension School enrolls so many people, but only a few come out with a degree?"

~YOU DO THE WORK THEY ASK OF YOU, in ANY of the 12 degree granting schools of Harvard, you have a Harvard degree. Do you honestly think it's that easy to get a ALB at HES? If that were the case, half of New England would be running around, waving their worthless HES diplomas. Read their admission policies, but don't forget to read between the lines.

Right off the jump, getting accepted into the program isn't all as easy as the literature would have you believe. You don't get your hand held and your tummy rubbed by your professors. You are held up to the same standards as HC kids, and for the most part, are expected to exceed those standards, because you're an adult and the same garbage you can get away with as a trad student doesn't apply anymore. You can't blame failure on being young and stupid and making poor choices anymore when you're a non-trad! (Clearly using those words as descriptives, not as a generalization of young adults.)

So, you can read up on that happy horse@#%& about getting in easy peasy with a 3.0 in your pre-reqs, but that's bull. You need to do a hell of a lot better than that if you want to matriculate.

So getting in at all is half the battle. The other half is staying there. You know, when I was in my younger, stupider days, I looked upon the non-trads with a lot of disdain. There was no separate program for continuing ed. in my former college, so trads and non-trads alike were all thrown in together. And yeah, they were always good for a laugh, with their rolling backpacks and constant hand-raising. But then I realized something. They were the ones getting the A's, breaking the curves. They were hungry. They wanted to make their lives better, and they were working as hard as they could to obtain their goals- a hell of a lot harder than most of us trads ever did.

Now, I am one of those people. And I'm the same damn way, minus the bag on wheels. Harvard is F#$^@$* HARD. Getting through any of their classes is no easy feat. Yet you seem to feel that this is a lie, that HES students are a fraud. Why? Because they're "non-traditional" students? Should they should be sheepish and downplay their varied and tremendous accomplishments because they didn't take the traditional 4-year, 18-22 year old HC route? They should feel grateful or something that they even get to walk on the same sidewalk as an HC kid? Bulls&^*!

I have gone on for way too long, and if you've stuck with it till the end, then more power to you. All I can wrap it up with is this. If you're a non-traditional student looking for the best degree completion program around, then give HES a shot. If you know nothing about it, educate yourself before making any decisions. If you're some random idiot that claims that "It's not REALLY Harvard," then feel free to meet up with me anytime. I'll let you help me with my homework, or sit in on my classes, and you can let me know how easy it is to walk through the "Ivy Backdoor."

stine31283

What's up with all the HES students *****ing and moaning because they feel "disrespected" by the HC students all the time? (Not necessarily on this thread, but in general...it's all I hear!)

Let's think about this, shall we?

Most of us came from other educational institutions, so take it back to those days for a minute. When YOU were 18, what was your reaction to the non-trads walking around campus? I know what mine was.

I made fun of them! ALL THE TIME.

Now I'm one of them...who would have been able to tell me seven years ago that nothing was going to turn out the way I planned; it would be even better?

You know it all when you're in college. So some HC kids can be haters. So can most trad students when they're dealing with non-trads.

C'mon HES, do yourselves a favor and let it go. You have nothing to explain to a kid. Let them have their little jibs and jabs in The Crimson. You know who you are and what you're accomplishing. That's all that matters.