overwhelmedma

They seem so intertwined I wonder why one over the other? It looks like Haverford has a slightly better admit rate but I don't know if that's accurate.

Skie

Overwhelmedma (great name; been there, done that!),
While you're waiting for replies, you should do an Advanced Search on Haverford Swarthmore. You'll see the many discussions on this subject that have taken place over the years. When my son was college hunting we found this very helpful. You can also search Bates Colby or any other schools you want to compare. Just be ready to spend even more time on CC!

woohoo!!!!!!

ok, i'm an incoming freshman at haverford, so i'm obviously VERY biased. But i'll try to outline the differences as I see them.

when i did the spec weekend for accepted students at haverford in april, my host and her friends talked about Swat students going to haverford for parties and saying that haverford students had "so much more fun."

and while I didn't do an overnight at swat (didn't even apply, actually) i can vouch for the fact that haverfordians know how to have fun.

you'd probably get a more intense, and slightly more competitive academic experience at Sawt (which isnt to say that at haverford you wouldn't get an intense academic experience at haverford or that swat is competitive, if you catch my drift...)

i felt very different vibes Haverford and Swarthmore, so I suggest visiting!

if you have more questions, you can PM me or post them on this board, I'd love to answer them!

i wouldn't post this question on the Swat board unless you want to start a flame war, there are a couple unhappy alums/students there.

HC Alum

My ultimate decision came down to HC and SC. My brother who was one year older went to Swat (older sister at BMC too, actually) and I have/had many friends at Swat. It's been about 10 years now, but the most important aspects of a college (campus culture, location) don't change much in such a short time period, if at all...

Haverford compared to Swarthmore?

SC gets a reputation for being "competitive" but I believe that's undeserved.
Some of the best parties I went to were at SC and they know how to have fun there too... I think the whining and misery poker at Swat is part-bravado and ego. It creates a more "intense" vibe, (which can occasionally be fun for a college kid to have "D_R_A_M_A") but it can also be tedious and self-indulgent.

The most important difference between the 2 is location. BMC and HC are 5 minutes a part by Blue Bus which can run 2x an hour... Swat is 25 minutes away and the van runs hourly at most. BMC/HC are in a true consortium while Swat is more by itself. In my opinion, it makes up for this a little by being a little larger (1450 kids while HC=1200, BMC 1300) and in the things it can buy with its huge endowment. However, to generalize, I don't believe Swat's resources match what the Bi-co can provide in terms of breadth and depth in most areas of study.

The student:faculty ratio is 8:1 with HC/SC approaching 7:1. Bi-Co=2500 kids and 312 faculty... vs approximately 181 faculty at Swat. Some parents on the Swat forum will argue that the faculty at Swat is somehow better but, considering HC has the only National Academy of Science member on staff among LACs, 2 physicians and a vet in the bio department (unique), and 2 NIH sponsored labs while other LACs have none, that claim is BS.

The Bi-Co synchronizes its departments and course offerings. Individually, both BMC and HC have departments that are considered some of the best among LACs and, together, shared departments that are excellent individually become outstanding. Bi-co students can tap into this richness. BMC's classics, archeology, languages, and art history and HC's religion, philosophy, chemistry, molecular bio/biomed, physics can compete with any LAC...

And then there are the synergies... if you want to major in behavioral psych, HC is very strong... if you want developmental psych, then that's BMC's forte, ect...

The resources available in the Bi-co are tremendous. The current head of the American Institute of Archaelogy went to HC and majored at BMC and the current dean of faculty at Williams majored in Russian at BMC (BMC's Russian is masters level), ect...

Socially, students can choose between 2 concert series, 2 film series, 2 speaker series, 4 dining centers to eat at for a change of pace, and 2 campuses to explore when yours' feels small, ect...

overwhelmedma

Thanks all - we are visiting in a couple of weeks, BMC as well, and all in two days so we'll see how much info we can absorb. My D likes the look of the combined neuropsych program at Haverford/BMC so we'll look into that at well. She has two friends going to BMC next year.
SKIE - thanks for the info on advanced search - that's really helpful. I have been trying not to spend all my time here but oh well!

interesteddad

My daughter just graduated from Swarthmore. The last time she set foot on Haverford's campus was when she took a campus tour the summer before 11th grade. While I am sure that Haverford has great parties, I have never heard Swarthmore students talk about Haverford parties as a particularly frequent or desireable entertainment destination.

The same is true for cross registration. More BMCers and HCers take courses at Swarthmore than vice versa. Swarthmore is definitely more stand-alone than the other two schools in the Tri-Co consortium, in large part because Swarthmore does not "divvy up" certain departments like Haverford and Byrn Mawr do. It offers the same departments as BMC and HC combined, plus Linguistics and Engineering.

It would be hard to go wrong with any of the three Phila schools. Bryn Mawr, Haverford, and Swarthmore are all top notch. Visit. Do some statistical research (enrollment, diversity, per student endowment, and so forth). Look at the academic programs. Figure out where you can get accepted. And decide which one, if any, is right for you. They are all really challenging schools academically, but you probably shouldn't choose Swarthmore unless you want to play a championship course from the back tees.

interesteddad

I've never heard anyone at Swarthmore or the Swarthmore forum here claim that the faculty is "better" than Haverford's or Bryn Mawr's.

Swarthmore pays higher salaries and benefits (sabatticals) than Haverford which pays more than Bryn Mawr, but I don't think that different would change the odds of getting a great professor in any given course at any of the three schools.

interesteddad

Haverford and Swarthmore are really not intertwined at all, other than the fact that they are top liberal arts colleges in Phila neighborhoods with Quaker roots and sports rivals.

They weren't even associated with the same branch of Quakers. One was an historically all-male school. The other co-ed from its founding.

I don't know what Haverford's acceptance rate is. The class that is starting at Swarthmore in two weeks had a 15% accceptance rate before waitlistees and 16% after the waitlist is figured in. Both schools are very difficult to get accepted.

interesteddad

Maybe HC alum (who gave an excellent overview above) and I could offer a cooperative copy and paste effort to end up highlighting the half-dozen or so most distinctive defining qualities and/or programs of the three Tri-co schools. These would be things you would want to learn more about each school that set each one apart from other LACs.

Bryn Mawr
Female Only
Anthropology Dept.


Haverford
Honor Code


Swarthmore
Co-ed from founding
Honors Program
Extreme Diversity
Extremely high PhD production
Per Student Endowment
Engineering

HC Alum

“I've never heard anyone at Swarthmore or the Swarthmore forum here claim that the faculty is "better" than Haverford's or Bryn Mawr's.”

Uh… I recall an unfortunate thread where the topic was “What makes Swarthmore (Amherst, Williams) special?” and a certain someone mentioned the faculty of these schools being more “special” than at other LACs. I have witnesses… ask mythmom.

“It offers the same departments as BMC and HC combined, plus Linguistics and Engineering.”

This isn’t true on 2 levels. 1st, the Bi-college offers geology, archeology, cities/urban planning and Italian and Swarthmore doesn’t. The 1st 3 are departments that are considered some of the best/if not the best among LACs. Swat offers Engineering, Linguistics and the performing arts are better (I think). For departments that are offered by both Bi-Co and Swat, I think your statement can be misleading because even though the departments have the same name, some departments may not have the same number of faculty and offer the same breath and depth of academic experience.

For example, BMC’s art history has 9 faculty while Swat has 7. For religion, it’s 9 and 8; German is 8 and 4, Russian is 6 and 5, ect… ect… ect…What this translates into is a black/africana studies major in the Bi-co being able to learn Swahili (not offered at Swat), metal work bronze casting if you’re an arts major (not at swat), Italian if you’re interested in art history or comparative literature. Again, approximately 312 faculty in the Bi-Co to 181 at Swarthmore. You can only do so much with only so many faculty.

Not only are the # of faculty important, but the Bi-college allows each school to specialize. HC’s biology department is solely bio-med/molecular and BMC’s is organism and developmental based. Swat’s bio department is slightly larger but its faculty needs to be spread out among molecular, organism and developmental. It’s wonderfully well rounded but it doesn’t offer students the same opportunities for breath and depth in these fields.

“I don't know what Haverford's acceptance rate is. The class that is starting at Swarthmore in two weeks had a 15% accceptance rate before waitlistees and 16% after the waitlist is figured in.”

Swat is a little more selective than HC but comparing raw acceptance rates doesn’t take into account an important fact. HC has one ED where 33% of the class is selected. By contrast, Swat has an EDI and II and I think about 50% of the entering class are committed to enroll. That translates into less kids needing to be accepted in the more volatile RD round where yields approach 37% and not the 100% of ED.

“More BMCers and HCers take courses at Swarthmore than vice versa.”
Isn’t that because there are 2500+ Bi-co kids to Swat’s 1450? If you mean that this is because Swat offers more classes than the Bi-co, I guess I should point out that the majority of Tri-co x-registraitons are from BMC and they have more reasons than books to make the effort to go over to Swat.

“Comparing BMC, HC and SC”
Regarding academic and extracurricular resources, this is sort of an artificial construct. The comparison should be between Bi-Co and Swat.

mythmom

Yes, I will swear in court that HC Alum is a reliable witness.

(Can't make winky face on my Mac.)

And I will reiterate my oft repeated position: These are all wonderful schools. Visit and see which is right for you.

And yes, the RD round at Swat is ultra-competitive, so if you are sure it's your heart's desire and can handle the risk (finances -- though I believe people needing FA can apply ED) apply ED.

I can't imagine regret at any of these three fabulous schools. Couldn't get my kids to consider them since we have roots in NE (my mom grew up in VT) though here on LI they're just as close, or closer. (However, some nasty bridge action away.)

I visited after my second child already had his college plans set just for my own curiosity -- colleges are like cathedrals to me -- and all three won my heart.

Since none of these schools are begging for students, with Swat and Haverford both being extremely competitive, I don't think any competition is necessary.

It certainly isn't Quaker. (My dear friend is a life-long Quaker who sent her daughter to Guilford.)

interesteddad

So, help out by filling in the blanks on what makes Haverford and BMC unique or distinctive.

Bryn Mawr
Female Only
Anthropology Dept.
Tightly integrated with Haverford
Swahili
Metal-work Bronze Casting

Haverford
Honor Code
Tightly integrated with Bryn Mawr

Swarthmore
Co-ed from founding
Honors Program
Extreme Diversity
Extremely high PhD production
Per Student Endowment
Engineering

froghorn

Bryn Mawr:
Honor Code (minus mandatory reporting)
Very diverse
Very high admittance to grad and PhD programs
Very cooperative culture (Ford, too)

interesteddad

Bryn Mawr is not that diverse:

Percentage of US minority plus international:

Bryn Mawr: 27%
Haverford: 31%
Swarthmore: 42%

froghorn

I guess I consider over a quarter to be quite diverse. I'm mistaken.