InquilineKea

Damn. That really hurts.

==

As for you, portmanteau, can you please navigate your way through http://epgy.stanford.edu or http://cty.jhu.edu ? It isn't so hard to get to distance learning from those base sites. You could also try merely self-studying for the AP Physics C or B exam and pay nothing for it (this is quite doable)

portmanteau

i know, it's a bit off-topic, but... is it possible to self-study 4 APs without turning into a raging suicidal maniac?

LesOs

It depends which APs you're planning on taking... It will certainly be very, very hard, though.

InquilineKea

Yes. I did it. And I still wasted hours of time.

all for...

4 Chem (I could have easily gotten 5 given my SAT II 790 on Chem, but I actually lost motivation some time prior to the exam and played video games)
5 Calc BC
5 Euro
5 World

I had lots of background knowledge though (and frankly, I studied World History the previous year).

==
It depends on
(a) your self-motivation
(b) your intelligence
(c) how much spare time you have

Any AP is self-studiable.

vin2l

iostream and InquilineKea, what do you mean by computational, and why is that bad? Is it different in style than CalcBC? Do you mean more problem solving and less theorem-proof stuff? I thought by splitting it into two, they go into more depth, is that wrong? How does it compare with what's offered by Harvard Extension which would be my alternative option?
http://math.rwinters.com/E21a/syllabus.htm

Does that look too computational also?

InquilineKea

Computational is similar to Calc BC. It means more problem solving and less in the way of theorems/proofs. EPGY splits the course into two, but judging from the syllabus, it doesn't appear that they really go into multivariable calculus in depth - partial derivatives come at the 34th lecture, so the real calculus part of the course doesn't even constitute half of the differential multivariable calculus course. The textbook is also a computational textbook

Also, Harvard Extension's textbook is Multivariable Calculus: Concepts and Contexts, 3rd Ed. by James Stewart. Yes, this is computational. Anything by James Stewart is computational. Check out the Amazon.com reviews as well

http://www.amazon.com/Multivariable-...6355137&sr=8-2

==
Computational isn't always bad. Theoretical proof-based math takes up more time and demands you to get used to the style of the math. If you're pressed for time and aren't hardcore into math, the computational style is advisable

vin2l

But if I take BOTH MV differential and MV intergral from EPGY, wouldn't I get far more depth than the Harvard Extension version, and wouldn't I be far more likely to get credit?

InquilineKea

2 years ago, I read that most Ivies don't take credit for EPGY courses. Stanford does, however. There is no equivalent of both MV differential and integral calculus in most universities - since multivariable calculus is very rarely split into two just like it is in EPGY (though I'd double check to make sure - I haven't perused the course catalogs of many universities). So you would get the same credit with a single course at another institution, or with both courses at EPGY (assuming that the university in question takes the transfer credit).

From the posts above, we see that people are managing to procrastinate the course to the few weeks before it ends. Surely, it would be quite difficult to catch up on a course that has a lot of depth.

Computational courses rarely come with depth.

It's also important to emphasize that "depth" in a course mostly comes from a student's own self-initiative. The best way to pursue depth is by doing more problems, not by relying on a course.

Also, what is your goal? Is it credit? (if so, what universities do you want to go into?) Or is it to show colleges that you're pursuing math further than Calculus BC + to pursue math more extensively through college?

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/registr...7/pdf/Math.pdf

Okay, the reason why EPGY splits multivariable into two is to follow Stanford's model. Note that Stanford's Honors math program has one course for multivariable, whereas the regular students have to take two such courses. Note also that Stanford's Math 51a is called "differential multivariable calculus and linear algebra".

==
http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/math/M52A/lectsums.pdf

Note that partial derivatives starts at lecture 35. Look at how discrete each lecture is. There isn't much depth.

Here's the lecture demo:
http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/mat...2Alecture.html

I was astonished to see how easy the lecture demos were. The abstract algebra and real analysis ones were especially easy for their level. I could easily understand them with a Calc BC background.

InquilineKea

So EPGY splits multivariable and integral into 2 - that doesn't seem to be too much of a problem as long as your parents are willing to pay for two multivariable courses.

The Harvard extension course is one lecture every week, for 2 hours. It's highly unlikely that you'll get that much depth out of the lectures. Neither of the courses are very much in-depth. They're both survey courses that do their job in giving you credit. At least you'll learn material in a similar way as you've learned Calc BC.

I've heard varying reviews of EGPY. Some get good instructors, some get very unresponsive ones.

==

Harvard Extension:
Dates:
Sept 20 - Jan 17

===

EPGY:
Each course is scheduled to take approximately 15 weeks to complete, although students may progress more quickly if they wish. Each course must be completed within 6 months of the student's official start-date for that course.

===
CTY:
http://cty.jhu.edu/cde/math/courses/multivariable.html

Individually Paced
Course Length: Typically 6 months

CTY uses James Stewart. My CTY geometry course didn't have lectures - it just had instructor help sessions.

==

The question is - do you think you need help? Or do you just want the credit?

===
Tuition:

MATH E-21a Multivariable Calculus (11648)
(Website) (Print View)
Robert Winters, PhD, Visiting Assistant Professor of Mathematics, Wellesley College.
Course tuition: noncredit and undergraduate credit $650, graduate credit $1,575.
Wednesday, Sept. 20, 7:35-9:35 pm, Harvard Hall, Room 202. Optional sections to be arranged. Fall term

This course covers the following topics: calculus of functions of several variables; vectors and vector-valued functions; parameterized curves and surfaces; vector fields; partial derivatives and gradients; optimization; method of Lagrange multipliers; integration over regions in R? and R?; integration over curves and surfaces; Green's theorem, Stokes's theorem, divergence theorem. Graduate-credit students complete additional computer-related or other projects consistent with the course material and their backgrounds. Prerequisites: MATH E-16, or the equivalent and general familiarity with computer use; placement test is recommended. (4 credits)

EPGY:

M52A Multivariable Differential Calculus $740 Fixed-Term Two Quarters
M52B Multivariable Integral Calculus $555 Fixed-Term Two Quarters

740 + 555 = $1295

CTY:
Individually Paced Courses: Tuition for individually paced courses in math, computer science, and science (below the AP level) is based on the amount of time selected. Students who complete a course with seven or more business days remaining in their enrollment may use the extra time to begin another individually paced course. Students who have not completed their course when their enrollment time ends may re-enroll for more time.

3 months tuition $ 610
6 months tuition $1145
9 months tuition $1740

InquilineKea

Wow, Harvard Extension the cheapest?!?! Harvard SSP is so expensive, yet Harvard Extension isn't that expensive at all!

Generally, it should take ~ 6 months to complete. You should e-mail EPGY about how students choose to pursue differential + integral multivariable calculus (and how long they generally complete both courses). 2 quarters is pretty much equivalent to 6 months.

As for rigor, all three should be computational and non-rigorous. With respect to Harvard Extension, you get classroom interaction. Whether you desire that or not, is up to your personal preferences.

==
On a side note, CTY courses do not issue grades (unless things have changed since I last took them). This makes it effectively impossible for you to substitute CTY credit in for college credit. EPGY apparently does (http://epgy.stanford.edu/policyguide.html). Harvard Extension credit may be substitutable for more colleges (but you'll have to e-mail people at the universities you're interested in to know whether such universities would really accept such transfer credit or not).

==

As a final recommendation, EPGY probably would be best. You can complete EPGY courses as quickly as you would like (so then you can register for integral multivariable calculus). As far as depth is concerned, none of them are particularly in depth - if you want depth - it's best to pursue it yourself by doing additional problems.

UNLESS

You want credit for college and the college you want to go to does not take EPGY credit (but takes Harvard Extension credit)

freeflyer

wow thanks everyone. you guys are hardcore.

anyway, i think i'm doing EPGY - i like its flexibility.

InquilineKea

On the other hand though, this may be more optimal for you:
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/c...ow.cgi?8/81881

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...p/t-22179.html

See the recommendation of texas137 (the program through U-Texas).

Maximum flexibility, no need to take two different multivariable courses. Again, there is the issue of credit transfer.

LIST OF EPGY/Multivariable Calculus RELATED LINKS:
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http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/F...c.php?t=133510
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/F...ic.php?t=40984
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/c...ow.cgi?8/81881
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...p/t-22179.html
http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=30263
http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=98866
EPGY's Multivariable Calc
Stanford EPGY online math courses - too easy?

InquilineKea

Edit: criples, I didn't realize that the link by texas137 is now broken... =/.

mochamaven

omg, EPGY BARELY gets into multivariable calc...2/3 of the course is vector algebra.

InquilineKea

Vector algebra is actually quite important in multivariable calculus though. If you don't get it, a lot of the stuff in multivariable can be confusing. If you do get it (and well), the rest of computational multivariable calculus can be a cakewalk.

Problem being, that too many people procrastinate while they're still on the vector algebra. =P