alexx

Yeah, no doubt that a cheeseburger has some nutritional value, but the point was still, and always has been, moderation. I'm not referring to idiots who drink tons of alcohol and decide to take a road trip. Should I change the analogy to soda, which has no nutritional value? Having three steakhouse burgers isn't going to cause anyone to crash into your car. Having a pack of cigarettes in one sitting wouldn't do that, either. Yet why is one judged harshly for being a weak victim of peer pressure?

A few calories don't make the argument flawed. Saying a cheeseburger is 'physically healthier' because it contributes some nutritional value is like saying marijuana is 'emotionally healthier' for possessing pain suppressing attributes.

Alex

Newjack88

This logic is flawed too. You crash your car because you lose control of it, someone cuts you off, etc. I am pretty sure that there is no substance out there that actually causes you to crash your car.

Anyways, this debate is pointless. Marijuana should be legalized. Alcohol is ok. Cigarettes are ok. Crack, heroine, meth, etc. should remain illegal for obvious reasons. (I do not think anyone was advocating to legalize any of these substances.)

ChaiMex

Marijuana, Moderation my foot...he wasn't a chimney. He is frowned upon on in My family, I don't know him too well, he gone bankrupt several times. If you have close friends who have done the same, then why the heck do you promote drugs?????

Thank you

If a fat person does drugs, they can die, in an anorexic person does drugs...they too can die... if a fat person eats a cheeseburger...they can die (and unlike drugs not immediately...or OVERDOSAGE, you can't overdose on Cheeseburgers and die 5 minutes later) but going back to your moderation...oh yeah we both knew people who went crazy even when they use it in moderation. the laws have nothing to do with restraint, but it reflects you as a person, it screams "I couldn't help but take a puff/sniff/whatever because my wacko friends told me to".

I understand why you're flattered, but honestly... Most 'bada--s are wannabes (I'll admit I'm one of the wannabes)...
I know they're supposed to feel good, I won't say I know they do as I've never tried anything except alcohol. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to tell you to stop, I would be the last person as I have too many friends who are already on crap like this. But I sure hope you don't mind giving up a few years of your life. If you have kid what will they say? What will you tell them? thats its ok used in moderation and they shouldn't eat cheeseburgers??? yeah right!

I am anti-drug, I can understand people who are pro-drug...this is one of the few views I have that is totally for or against something.
I can't speak for your parents, I really can't. But Honestly...I bet they're crying inside. When my uncle smoked the first time. he came home and told everyone, the whole family...no one stopped him, my grandma(who happens to be a very 'active' *cough* person and a heavy drinker) mentioned how she didn't do anything. but she was dying inside. I know that I won't change your mind, and so do parents. It sort of like you a begger(you're parents are the beggers) asking for a dollar(in this case the dollar represents the discontinuation of drugs), a person(you are this person) offers you 50 cents (and this is them asking you to do it in "moderation") and only so...take it or leave it no more no less....what is the begger going to do? Probably take the 50 cents...
although, I can't say that these are your parents...

no...they're people who do care...and believe strongly in that these kids drinking at 14 and 15 should be punished... not everyone in Germany didn't care, just like some of the people here want certain drugs legalized... msot people probably did care they just aren't passionate, motivated, or they just gave up. The way you describe it it sounds like everyone was doing it, and when they whole(at least a good chunk, you know what I mean) population does it people are less inclined to care especially after if generations of this happening. I also think Germany is a perfect example...Prostitution is legal there, they sure sound up to the 'American' standard... In China during the opium war, they cracked heads when people did opium (hey!!!! the US isn't the only country who thinks drugs are bad!!!!! hmmm, i guess they're not soo good for you) and while it was brutal it worked.

uhh...your telling people it is OK to do drugs...

edit: Of speaking of Germany...did you know a couple of people died not too long ago...because of drugs...although it wasn't a direct cause of drugs...they had lead poisoning...they investigated it more and found VISIBLE lead on the leaves....it turns out the drug dealers wanted to charge more for less...so they sprinkle some lead, so thats another reason not to do them. Because drug dealers are the saints of the earth...

88888888

yes .

Infinite_Truth

Everyone judges people. And everyone is entitled to think they are morally superior to someone else. Being a relativist is nothing but inefficent and blatantly useless. I do consider myself morally superior to someone who does cocaine and doesn't want to quit [not that he can't, but that he doesn't want to]. Don't you consider yourself morally superior to a Nazi? I sure do. There are scum on the planet, and pretending that everyone is happy and nice is called being naive.

Even our governments determine what human beings are worthwhile and who is a piece of crap. We put the pieces of crap in jail or simply execute them. The US government considers hard-drug users scum, and punishes them accordingly for acting so pathetically.

alexx

All right, it looks like I'm going to have to take you through this again.
Because the friends I know didn't exercise moderation. In the end they couldn't control their habits and ended up losing control of themselves. You say yourself you don't know much about your uncle, I doubt you even understand his circumstances outside of what your parents told you. I'm not exactly promoting drugs here, by the way. Like I've said many, many, many times before, I don't try to get people to do them, because it really does take a strong person to be able to get out (I'm not bragging that I'm strong, but my parents have taught me from an early age to exercise caution and as a result, I can). The only thing I'm doing is trying to let the other side know that not all drug users are bad, and that not all drugs are as dangerous as most people make them out to be. I'm battling automatic judgment knowing I won't change your mind, but I'm hoping to at least give you a little understanding of how the other side isn't just full of hedonistic slobs with no ambitions in life.
Actually, I don't know anyone who went crazy when exercising moderation. Cheeseburgers don't have an immediate effect, but that doesn't change the fact that long-term overeating and obesity pose life-threatening health risks. Just because they're not immediate (moderate drug use isn't immediate either), they're smarter? Both end up shaving a few years off your life. Heck yeah, I'll try to stop my kids from chugging McDonald's if they're overweight and their health is compromised, but after a certain point there's not much anyone could do. Which paints the principle as a whole, really: a parent's job is to help a child learn self-control, but it's ultimately up to the kid how he wants to live. So you teach him how to eat healthy from the start and it'll lessen the chances of him having weight-related complications later in life. Same principle applies to drugs and alcohol (especially since you can't deny that it's becoming more and more common). You teach him how to be safe and exercise moderation from an early age, it'll lessen the chances of him going buck-wild after he leaves home.
Yeah... I'll tell them how sorry I am even after they, themselves, introduced me to it in the first place. My mom gave me my first joint and told me, "I'll let you try this if you promise to be safe about it." My dad and I smoke cigarettes on the porch together. That's how their parents brought them up, and don't you dare call them stupid parents. They're not crying about how I started using drugs (that would be hypocritical), they're actually happy I have the brains not to let it get out of control. And because this is out in the open, we can talk about anything. We're a very close family.
Wait, what? Like I said, I've lived in those places. People there aren't so adamently against it, and it's not because they've been beaten down by prospects of degeneration. Trust me, they're not tolerant of alcohol because they have no choice. Are you calling Germany morally inferior to the 'American standard'? Go and see for yourself. Definitely not true.
...where do you think I even tried hallucinogens for the first time? I don't know what part of China you're from and I doubt you were alive during the Opium Wars (I confess, I haven't been to all of China, nor was I alive 150 years ago), but the younger people there don't seem to care as much. I don't know if it was because I was living in a big city, but my cousins were all active and none of their lives were shattered dramatically by a little self-indulgence here and there. Same as in the Philippines when I was visiting. Maybe I've just been living in the wrong places but, even then, comparing the US to China is a much bigger cultural difference than comparing it to western Europe, which is why I've been using the latter as a more prominent example.
I don't know, ChaiMex. I'm really trying to keep up and understand your accusations, but they're just... wrong. In your deep and penetrating analysis of me and my family life you've come up with the wrong conclusions, along with the conclusions regarding places I, personally, have lived in.

Alex

alexx

P.S. I would just like to make it known that no, I'm not a big fan of 'harder stuff' such as cocaine or hallucinogenics. I tried them a long time ago, that's all. So you guys don't think I'm a crackhead or anything, lol.
Cocaine user... Nazi. Cocaine user... Nazi. Somehow the two don't seem related at all, not even by principle. Sure, I feel bad for the addict who can't stop and does all sorts of things to get what he wants, but that's a different case entirely. For the most part, I'm talking about recreational use, which still relies on moderation (I can imagine ChaiMex cringing, lol... trust me, I'm tired of that word too).

After reading all of my stuff on this thread, would you consider me inferior? I self-indulge once in a while, but so what? I go on CC in my spare time, for goodness sake. I can't change your mind, but hopefully after this you won't judge someone who 'self-indulges' once in a while the same way you would judge the 'scum' you talk about.
Anyone else want to take this one? My fingers are tired from typing.

Alex

P.S. Sorry, sorry! I know I'm getting carried away with these jumbo-long responses. So I'm going to withdraw from this argument unless one of my points is challenged. x)

PlattsburghLoser

Yes. But I'm a hypocrite and I realize that, though it's not intentional.

The only time it really bothers me is if someone is disturbing me through their drug/alcohol use by acting obnoxious, screaming and running up and down the dorm hallways at 4am when I have class in three hours.

Other than that, I might instinctively pass a quick judgment but it's nothing I sit around critiquing for hours.

anna5631

This is a really interesting topic! Since it is National Weed Day today, I feel obligated to add my two cents.

I feel that no one has the right to judge people who have tried/do drugs/alcohol if they've never tried it. On one hand, I agree that people who do it purely for the social reasons, especially those who post drunken pictures of themselves on the Internet, are d*****bags.

On the other hand, though, I consider myself to be a person who is very self-reflective. And in this way, weed has given me a really interesting perspective of the world that I would have otherwise never discovered. If you don't like the way it feels, don't do it. But I personally do and people who say I'm "stupid" for it have no idea what they are talking about. Same with cigarettes. If you don't want to pay the $5 a pack or risk getting addicted, which is bad for you both physically and psychologically, don't do it. But there is a reason so many people smoke around the world. It's not like people just do it because it "makes them look cool." Well, maybe some d*****bag freshmen. Same with drinking.

When it comes down to it, though, you shouldn't be judging anyone if you don't know them extremely well and if you don't know their full situation.

ruca

Yeah 4-20 ftw. Judge me because i honestly don't give a **** if you do or don't

InfiniteTruth, what you said in post #215 was interesting, but it's also important to leave room for doubt--like saying
"yes, my visceral judgment of a pot user is negative, but maybe i don't know everything." =/

brieb08

We're having a 4-20 party in art class tomorrow lol. That's how hippy my art teacher is.

ChaiMex

I understand what you are saying, and I've been told the story several times, believe it or not my parents aren't shoving it down my throat that drugs are bad, I believe in this concept out of experience .In fact, I'm not sure what their reaction would be if i did take them, I don't know whether they would go berserk or just slum into a deep depression. I've met my uncle, he did exercise 'moderation' of what I've been told. I've met him and I'm not sure what to make of him, neither does anyone else in the family. I understand not all drug users are bad, I have one too many friends, Cousins, and whatnot on them...understand there is a correlation between criminals and drugs, so if people find out you're on the stuff, you credibility shoots down below places imaginable. I know the effects of drugs are exaggerated, but they're still bad none the less and I have personally seen enough people both stupid and smart alike lose their future.

[quote]Actually, I don't know anyone who went crazy when exercising moderation. Cheeseburgers don't have an immediate effect, but that doesn't change the fact that long-term overeating and obesity pose life-threatening health risks. Just because they're not immediate (moderate drug use isn't immediate either), they're smarter? Both end up shaving a few years off your life. Heck yeah, I'll try to stop my kids from chugging McDonald's if they're overweight and their health is compromised, but after a certain point there's not much anyone could do. Which paints the principle as a whole, really: a parent's job is to help a child learn self-control, but it's ultimately up to the kid how he wants to live. So you teach him how to eat healthy from the start and it'll lessen the chances of him having weight-related complications later in life. Same principle applies to drugs and alcohol (especially since you can't deny that it's becoming more and more common). You teach him how to be safe and exercise moderation from an early age, it'll lessen the chances of him going buck-wild after he leaves home.[quote]
The Idea of Self control implies you stay away from what is harmful and illegal, it is hypocritical to give into peer pressure and calling it self control when you're high but not 'too high', it hypocritical when you say "I'm having a stressful day I think I'm going to go shove cocaine up my nose, or smoke some pot", or when you know you should and it is illegal but you do. I fail to see your reasoning behind this. That is not self control when you do drugs every month, or every week, or even every year. It is the opposite, you give into you desire. That, my friend, is not self control.

I disagree, and Like I said, i can't speak for your parents. thats all I'll say. I am not stupid enough to call anyones mother, father, dog, teacher, brother, cousin, whatever stupid. I want a discussion, not a flame war, when I want one I will make it known.

I suppose, but I've recently read some pretty bad thing about Germany. I suppose the politically correct thing to would be to say that I wasn't meaning my word to offend Germans, but seeing as it would be stupid, I admit i guess I did impose a bad choice of word in which make it seem like i think Germany is inferior. I do not really think that but my morals are more inline with those of the American law then the German law. They're a number of people who believe things on both sides, it would be GENERALIZING if anyone would say everyone from 'x' country or region is friendly. same thing applies here.

no, your not mistaken, China and the Philippines have drug problems (I'm assuming you know I have family in both since these are two consequently Asian countries you talked about). in the Philippines, kid buy some shoe polish stuff I can't remember exactly and get high on it. The streets of Shanghai are filled with prostitutes, especially when you near a hotel. I was alive during the opium wars....obviously...(that was sarcasm if you didn't catch it). But my Grandpa, the one who actually harbored my drug uncle, grew up in China. He has been all over china, as when the Japanese invaded he moved everywhere from Burma(which isn't in China mind you but none the less) to the Chongqing, Guangzhou, Beijing, Nanjing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Tianjin, Chengdu and Changsha. he was born and raised in Shanghai and NOT educated under the PRC, there is a whole story which if anybody is "deeply fascinated" feel free to message me. But in China they taught him that they eventually lost the opium wars but the government put strict laws down, which were very brutal and almost completely halted opium use. Now of course, no country of geographical and populous significance is free of drugs. I'm not saying China is drug free, and the young people do care, the young people are much like you and I. Some are for and some are against, and while i really do dislike the PRC (so much to the point I side with Tibet more, and I am HAN) I do agree with some of their policies.

I would not say my analysis is wrong, but wrong is merely your opinion. I do not understand your logic. so That being Said I could say the same thing you say, but I'll save myself the time as you already know it is implied with this word.

yeah I know what you mean... these responses take forever to make. aside from everything else. What do your parents do? You obviously travel a lot, where do you go? and why do you travel too much?...just curious :P

piccolojunior

Just because you think it's "healthier" doesn't stop it from being a detriment. Bad analogy btw, so epic fail award goes to you I guess?

Lol, another failed attempt to sound smart. How do more people lose control of their cars, by eating too much or drinking too much alcohol? GG

BTW, part of the reason that the marijuana brigade is lame is because:

1. There are at least tens of causes that are more important than legalizing another smokable substance.

2. If you need THC so badly, why does it need to be smoked in the form of the plant? (see: the pathetic argument for wine being "good" for the body)

3. It's just more people *****ing, which is always annoying.

I'll leave with this epic quote:

"Nah man I don't smoke weed...I smoke clowns like you on the b-ball court."

alexx

First of all, I already called drugs and alcohol a form of self-indulgence. Self-indulgence in any respect, whether it be food, sweets, porn, whatever, shows some lack of self-control, so as I said I'm not too offended if you're implying it. However, I feel it also takes self-control not to let it get out of hand. Sure it might not be dominating willpower, but at least it's being smart about it (and yes, smart about it. There is such a thing). I don't find it hypocritical at all to admit a certain lack of self-control, I'm just saying one needs it not to get out of control.
I know you disagree, and I respect that you disagree. I won't change your mind, I'm just trying to make you understand a bit more my take/view on the whole thing.
Yep. It's the same there as here, having two sides to the same argument. I suppose I didn't really mean they didn't care, but they didn't seem particularly affected when they were offering me.
Odd, I don't seem to think so. Just because you can't understand my logic doesn't make it wrong, and I'm trying to explain it but apparently I'm not articulate enough.
Oh, man... complicated story. I'm white, but my parents adopted me (they're Chinese). So I've been back and forth between China and the US (more time in the US), and we have friends and family who moved to the Philippines so I've been there twice. A while ago I got in touch with my birth parents, who stem from the Netherlands (they live in the US). So I've been there a bit, stayed with my grandparents, and have cousins all over western Europe (mostly the Netherlands and Germany). xD

Alex

alexx

Just because I said it's healthier doesn't mean I think it's healthy. Do I have to say, "less detrimental"?

You said, "IMO, either do all of it or do none of it." I said, "just because one likes to drink doesn't mean he's fond of smoking." So does the infamous EFA go to me for making a (blatantly) related statement or to you for not seeing the connection?

And I liked the science analogy. xD xD

Alex