aglages

"I hope that more people will come to realize that Hispanics come in many different “flavors”. One who is upper middle class and votes Republican, for example, is no less “authentic” than the Hispanic who is poor and votes Democratic."
^^^^
They may both be "authentic", but I wonder whether 100+ point bumps in SAT scores were designed to help the upper middle class "privileged" Hispanic compete against his non-Hispanic brothers or to give a "leg-up" to the less privileged Hispanic ones.

entomom

Absolutely, I don't think you'll find anyone here who says that there is a specific "Hispanic experience", just as there isn't a mold for any other ethnic or racial group. Take a look at some of the other threads on this forum and you'll see a variety of outlooks, circumstances, etc.

Three different posters have stated on this thread that large bumps in SAT scores don't appear to go to middle class, privileged Hispanic students:

As a matter of fact, I often tell Hispanic students who are obviously well off financially (eg. they state their family income, they're not applying for FA, they attended expensive summer programs, etc.) that they shouldn't expect to be accepted to selective schools with lower stats that non-URM candidates.

aglages

"...I often tell Hispanic students who are obviously well off financially (eg. they state their family income, they're not applying for FA..."
Who states their income on a college application or says they don't need financial aid? All the books I've read on the application process say that everyone (regardless of income) should check the FA box on the application.

entomom

First concerning my specific statement:

Members often state (or are asked) their financial situation on chances thread. While most students want to know about their chances at admissions, I always also address their financial situation, as how you're going to pay for college is just as important as getting in.

Here's an example, for an AA student, but the same holds for Hispanics:

Chance me? Black at H/P/Y? Am I shooting too high? My friends and advisors say I am!

Next, concerning your general questions about college applications and financial information:

The CA asks applicants to check a box if they are applying for FA. For a relatively small number of need-blind schools, this is not considered; but for the vast majority of colleges, it is taken into consideration, particularly in the current financial climate. I agree that everyone should apply for FA no matter what their financial situation, however the reality is that many mid-upper income families have a reasonable understanding that they won't qualify (by running estimators) and don't want to go through the paperwork. Take a look at the FA & Scholarship forum to see a plethora of these types of threads. In addition, some students want to show that they are prepared to be full pay as it may help for admissions to need-aware schools. Here's a recent example of how FA can play into acceptances, from Reed College:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/bu...my/10reed.html

aglages

"As a matter of fact, I often tell Hispanic students who are obviously well off financially (eg. they state their family income, they're not applying for FA, they attended expensive summer programs, etc.) that they shouldn't expect to be accepted to selective schools with lower stats that non-URM candidates."
^^^^^
"I agree that everyone should apply for FA no matter what their financial situation..."
^^^^^
We are in agreement (as are most of the supposed experts).
My question(s) remain:
Which colleges ask the applicant to state their income during the application process?
If every Hispanic (regardless of income) checks the FA box, how will the college differentiate between the economic situations of the applicants before an acceptance decision is made?

Youdon'tsay

Ds had to send in the CSS Profile to all the schools he applied to early, except for the in-state public. If they want to know the (sorry) state of our financial affairs, they can.

entomom

As I stated before, for the relatively few, well-endowed, need-blind schools, they do NOT look at whether the FA box is check or at FA materials (FAFSA or Profile) submitted by the student. Any school that is need-aware can look at the FA information submitted by the student on their FAFSA and Profile documents. Do you want me to list schools here?? If that's what you're looking for here are two articles that give examples and discuss the relative abundance of need-blind and need-aware schools:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/ed...pagewanted=all

News: A Retreat From ?Need Blind? - Inside Higher Ed

Every Hispanic student does NOT check the FA box. But if hypothetically they did, colleges routinely use information such as: zip code, HS (private, underserved, % subsidized lunches, etc.), profession and educational level of parents, summer programs attended (eg. there's a big difference between the SES of students attending Harvard's SSP and MIT's MITES), ECs, essays, etc. to differentiate between the economic situations of applicants.

x-posted withe YDS

aglages

EA & ED students at most of the top "tier" schools (those students most needing SAT bumps) are applying and being accepted before any FA (FAFSA) documents are received. Are you seriously suggesting that the admissions committees are looking at the economic profiles of their URM applicants to differentiate between the "privileged" and "less-privileged" BEFORE offering admission? Certainly the FA people will, but determining and limiting URMs by zip code / HS is about as accurate as determining racial genetics with a photograph (IMHO).

fineartsmajormom

I think that the admissions reps at the selective schools know the HS in their region and they do use zip codes for getting a sense of what type of economic "barriers" a student may be facing. I get this from reading those admissions books and NYT "the envelope"type articles.

Our HS has lots of kids applying to very selective schools but we are also a 60% minority (mainly hispanic) school with 35% free/reduced lunch. HOWEVER, most of the kids applying to the very selective schools come from the neighborhoods that are high income in the district so I am quite sure that what the rep looks at to distinguish the really economically challenged kids from our neighborhood is 1) parent's level of education 2) zip code.

Now a true and live-time annecdote. So...my son is URM, all IB/AP schedule, parents both with graduate degrees, in a zip code that is very affluent will apply to the same college as his friend in his native speaker IB spanish class...BUT she comes from single parent household, is in a much lower income zip code and parent didn't finish high school. Will she get a very different bump at a very selective school? I like to think so; I also hope they both get into the school of their choice but I know that girl faced zero academic help at home in her calc class and babysits little brother every afternoon and most nights as her mother works two jobs. Same high school, same schedule, similar grades, both hispanic...totally different socio-economic background...who do you think the selective college degree will impact more on long term future? Do I see the girl as my S's competition? No, he is competing with the white kids from the same zipcode in the same school. The URM designation, I think, is only a circumstance-blind bump for much less competitive public and private schools in need of improving their stats on diversity.

aglages

"Will she get a very different bump at a very selective school? I like to think so;"
^^^^
I'd like to think so also. However, I don't think the admissions counselors / committees consider themselves detectives for the purposes of assigning SAT "bumps" for URMs. I think in most cases the college would give her and your son the same "leg up". If she happens to apply to one of the (few?) colleges that actually spend any time trying to differentiate between the economic advantaged URM form those that are not, she may well not receive the addition help she deserves.

entomom

The Profile accompanies most (if not all) top tier privates, EA, ED or RD.

From the NYT link that I gave above:

Yes, this is quote refers to need-aware schools, but it shows that colleges readily use factors like zip code and parent's background to assess applicants for a variety of reasons.

That said, at this point, I'm quite ready to agree to disagree. I've invested enough time and provided enough information (via links to credible sources) to present my understanding of the process.

aglages

"I'm quite ready to agree to disagree. I've invested enough time and provided enough information (via links to credible sources) to present my understanding of the process."
^^^^
It isn't a question of whether you have knowledge of the process, it is a question whether you either understand it correctly or have misinterpreted the limited data that you have.

I'm also willing to agree to disagree. Despite your "understanding" of the process, I doubt many of the "privileged" Hispanics will decide not to check both the FA box and the Hispanic box on their application just in case you are incorrect for the majority of colleges. Of course that is just my opinion....