What's the bottom line?

justchuck · 10-29-2009, 08:00 PM

1. Is there some way to figure out how much being a Hispanic male adds to a persons chances at selective colleges?

2. Is that old study by the Princeton professors valid? The one that suggests 150 or so SAT points.

3. Is it true that URMs are compared to their "own" group?

4. Is there somewhere to find out percentiles by group for SAT scores, GPAs, AP classes, AP scores, etc. etc.? For instance, if a student in general scored 600-650 across the board on the SAT 1s, that might put them in the 70th-75th percentile compared to all students. It might put them in the 80th-85th percentile for Hispanics, it might put them in the 90th percentile for Hispanic males. See where I'm going with this?

Anyone have any facts/figures?

Youdon'tsay · 10-29-2009, 08:31 PM

I would love to see figures like that.

The approach ds is taking is to treat himself as a commodity. He's looking at northern/Midwestern LACs in part because he knows male Hispanics with his stats are a rarity at those kinds of schools.

entomom · 10-30-2009, 12:04 AM

4. Let's start with the easiest question, for the SAT I, at least:

SAT Data Tables

Under "Test Performance" is a table for sex, race and ethnicity individually (sorry, no combined categories, eg. Hispanic white male).

I've never seen any data for GPAs or any other admissions factors.

2. I'm not familiar with the study, but I have heard the 100+ point number thrown around. My ASSUMPTION is that it is true for URMs who are low income, have overcome academic obstacles, attend underserved HSs, etc., but not for middle/upper SES, suburban or private school URMs. This is just my opinion, and I haven't seen anything data-wise that would either confirm or deny it.

1. No quantitative formula that I know of, and I think it both depends on the individual circumstances of the kid (see 2 above) and the school. I agree with Youdon'tsay, that both males and Hispanics are sought after in rural or midwestern LACs simply because fewer qualified candidates with those characteristics apply than the colleges would like. So, that candidate is likely to be given a bigger bump at those schools than at one of the uber selects, where the competition is high for all demographic groups.

3. The conventional wisdom is that URMs are put in their respective piles and considered within that group. Again, I haven't heard anything that would make me think otherwise, one way or the other. However, within those groups, I do think that candidates are considered based on their access to academic opportunities (see 2 above). At one end of the spectrum, would be URM kids who have had few chances for academic enrichment but show signs of being able to excel given the proper environment; these kids may be given a substantial bump to lower gpas and test scores. At the other end of the spectrum are URMs who have had academic advantages, maybe have well educated parents, etc.; they are more likely to need stats that compare to non-URM candidates. The difference between this last group and their non-URM cohort is that they may be accepted to all of their reach schools rather than one or two, because a URM who is very likely to succeed is a valuable quantity. I know this last statement is pretty cynical, but I think it's true from personal experience. Unfortunately, as a person who likes data, this is just a single case study, no replication or random control, so it's definitely open for criticism

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justchuck · 10-30-2009, 11:34 AM

I was rereading the study last night. It was published in 2004, but looks at SAT scores and admissions data from the 1980s, 1993, and 1997. It looks at recruted athletes, legacies, Hispanics and African Americans. Based on the 1600 pt. 2 part SAT there are some big points awarded to these groups, basically at the expense of Asians. Hispanics were found to be awarded 185 pts., AA-250 pts., recruited athletes-I think it was 160, legacies-100, I believe. The study was done by two Princeton professors and looked at "selective/exclusive" schools only. The biggest bump w for students in the 1200-1300 range on the SAT 1.

I have seen the same steering towards the midwest that you mentioned. I saw this with both my sons when I looked for appropriate colleges on college board.

I also spoke by e mail with a college counselor that is familiar with the issue. She said a lot has changed in the past decade or so, with many Hispanic families having higher incomes. She felt any big bump would go only to low income, immigrant families.

I see some bump for my younger son on mychancesdotnet at some schools, but not much of a bump at top tier schools. The bump is mostly at smaller, private LACs. For most schools, it seems that the student has to meet the bare minimum on SAT scores, and then there is a good bump in the chance of admission, but it is not like you can get 600s-650s on the SAT 1s and get into the Ivys.

I really do recommend setting up a profile for any interested student on mychancesdotnet. The scattershot graphs regarding admissions are quite amazing, and the graphs can be arranged by variables such as GPA, number of AP classes, URM, SAT combined, etc. etc. The graphs can be plotted for any college also.

I would love to hear from anyone else who has knowledge of this subject.

Thanks again, entomom!

justchuck · 10-30-2009, 11:44 AM

That is the kind of information I what looking for.

PS-What is it about Asians and math anyway? LOL. Am allowed to ask that?

There must be some type of natural ability. I cannot believe that is it all environment (studying, homework, etc.)

entomom · 10-30-2009, 01:13 PM

^Ha, sure, as an Asian myself I have no problem with you asking! I think it's a combination of natural ability, cultural values to study hard and self-fulfilling prophecy (teachers all expect you to do well, so that goes a long way in making it happen).

Thank you for the information and what you've gathered along the way with your sons. It really helps in building some sort of understanding of how the process works for URM students.

PayFor · 11-01-2009, 06:36 AM

entomon -- Thank you for that link to the SAT data tables. I had been unable to find it; for some reason I find the CollegeBoard site very difficult to search.

Quote:

. . . a URM who is very likely to succeed is a valuable quantity.

I think about this, too, in considering how colleges view my S. Agreed, it’s a cynical way to look at it, but I have to believe that colleges (1) desire diversity and (2) desire students likely to graduate. Therefore, a “privileged” URM with strong stats and a proven record of success could be the “easy” way for a college to meet their goals. Some might view this as unfair, but I’m confident my S will bring diversity to any college he attends and I’m going to continue to help him get into the college that is the best fit for him. I strongly believe that his success, like the success of any URM, serves to help the cause of others who are less privileged.

PayFor · 11-01-2009, 06:50 AM

About mychancesdotnet --

My S set up his profile there and he likes to quote me his chances from there. I find them too optimistic and remind him that all the data is self-reported by a self-selected group of participants, so it’s much too speculative for my taste. However, I do enjoy playing with the various factors and seeing how they affect chances.

Without any special insider knowledge, I tend to agree that a higher-income URM would need to meet the general requirements for a school first before he gets any slight bump in increased chances. That’s consistent with what our GC’s thinking.

aglages · 11-01-2009, 09:34 AM

"I strongly believe that his success, like the success of any URM, serves to help the cause of others who are less privileged."
^^^^
Conversely, would the failure of a less fortunate URM, like the failure of any URM, serve to hurt the cause of others who are more privileged? Just curious.....

PayFor · 11-01-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Conversely, would the failure of a less fortunate URM, like the failure of any URM, serve to hurt the cause of others who are more privileged? Just curious.....

I think it could, because some people would judge the more privileged URM based on the performance of the one who failed. Negative stereotyping, in other words. However, the privileged URM has more resources to overcome that negative stereotype than the underprivileged URM, so the damage is less serious. I’m curious what you think . . .

PayFor · 11-01-2009, 07:47 PM

I hope that more people will come to realize that Hispanics come in many different “flavors”. One who is upper middle class and votes Republican, for example, is no less “authentic” than the Hispanic who is poor and votes Democratic.

For those who celebrate dia de los muertos, I hope you had a good one today. As usual, we had a small family remembrance for our dearly departed loved ones and enjoyed tamales for dinner.

aglages · 11-01-2009, 10:24 PM

"I strongly believe that his success, like the success of any URM, serves to help the cause of others who are less privileged."
^^^^
"I’m curious what you think . . ."
^^^
I don't think the "less privileged" URM that needs a bump in his SATs to gain entry into a reach school will be benefited by competing for a limited number of URM spots with a “privileged” URM with strong stats and a proven record of success which could be the “easy” way for a college to meet their goals.

Youdon'tsay · 11-02-2009, 12:04 AM

Payfor, I went to my first dia de los muertos celebration tonight, complete with a marvelous band!

fineartsmajormom · 11-02-2009, 04:10 PM

We had the Ecuadorian version of the dia de los difuntos (per usual weird result of imposing European catholic traditions on top of indigenous rituals) consisting of making and eating little bread babies (that resemble Inca mummies) plus drinking tasty colada morada (bright purple warm fruit drink) ... talk about the bread/body and wine/blood analogies...if you think too hard about it you get a little queasy....It was a blast as usual. I got a little teary eyed when my son said it will be his last "guagua de pan" since he will be away at college next year. Perhaps he can stay there for Thanksgiving but come home for 1 de noviembre...

PayFor · 11-03-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

I don't think the "less privileged" URM that needs a bump in his SATs to gain entry into a reach school will be benefited by competing for a limited number of URM spots with a “privileged” URM with strong stats and a proven record of success which could be the “easy” way for a college to meet their goals.

I think the relatively low graduation rates for URM students admitted despite having stats significantly below a school’s median give the adcoms incentive to game the system. This could very well be an example of the law of unintended consequences at work, although admitting a URM with strong stats does gain the school an element of diversity that would not otherwise be provided by admitting an “average white guy”.

I still maintain that every successful URM has a strong potential to benefit his less privileged brothers. One, by being a role model who can serve to break negative stereotypes. Two, by individually helping other URMs by “paying it forward”.

BTW, we have some terrific posters here on CC who pay it forward in spades by sharing valuable knowledge they’ve learned in this crazy admissions process.