serf-

^^ agreed

sellout though ;p
(jk!)

verse

woah thanks for the long reply DT...really appreciate it.

hmm for my case i'm not interested in studying science or mathematics related subjects/modules AT ALL. closest stuff i can think of which i'm open to that's related would be psychology or econs related stuff. i'm very much a humanities/languages/writing type person. do the science modules you have to take affect your final degree honours grade?

and actually i'm already more or less set on UK, if i'm not staying local. reason being, but NOT limited to the pragmatic concern of being able to get an honours degree in 3 years in the uk. (parents getting very old already must start to earn money faster -_-) but i'll still take some time out to look at some of the colleges you've listed. thanks!

PS totally agree with the typical singaporean sentiment of 'study this for what?!'...i've gotten that EVERYTIME i tell people, especially the older generation that i was doing arts without maths in jc...and i get that too now everytime i tell people i won't be doing engineering/business/econs at uni but history or comm studies instead...

lOngbOWmeN

not trying to start a fight here, i just want to clarify something with D.T., i understand that a major in LACs/US unis takes up anywhere from 60% to 80% of your courseload, so assuming that quality of education and student motivation are not too atrocious elsewhere, will a LAC education be as in-depth as one that has 100% of its courseload tailored to the specific field (regardless of whether depth > breadth or vice versa)?

as to verse, i would say try to ace your SATs, and give yourself a wider range of choices....while AAC is a decent grade, it probably wont be enough to grant you access to the best UK unis, given the lacklustre job prospects in the UK and the typical SG employer's extremely myopic either "HYPSM oxbridge or local" worldview, you probably wont do very well when it comes to employment....the US route would be more versatile, with plenty of job opportunities and the option of going to a prestigious grad school to give u the branding you need to make it big back in SG

woebegone

wow, kudos to DT for that amazing post on LACs!

to LBW, your concern about the depth vs. breadth is a somewhat valid one. but really, it has more to do with the US system in general rather than pertaining specifically to LACs. in general, most universities function similar as LACs in terms of major requirements , unless we're talking about pre-professional schools. so whether you're at harvard or amherst, your major is likely to take up merely half your courseload or less (it actually is much less than the 60-80% you mentioned), some schools like middlebury or my school, connecticut college, specifically said that you can't take more than 16 (out of 32) courses in a single department. The point is obvious: to make sure that you obtain sufficient breadth which is the whole point of a liberal arts education. And yes you are right, as far as depth is concerned, I am almost positive that we learn less stuff in a particular discipline than our counterparts in UK or local universities do. But then again, if you're not on a pre-professional path, does amount of subject matter that you learn in school matter that much really? The proponent of a US-styled education will probably argue that it doesn't, that the articulation skills as well as critical and creative thinking skills, which LACs or US unis in general are arguably better at developing, matter more in the global economy today.

Not to be a downer here, but as great an education as you might get at a good LAC, there are many downsides that you should keep in mind when considering going to a LAC:

1) Most people - substitute with "virtually everyone" if you don't go to Amherst or Williams - you meet will go "huh?" when you tell where you go to college. And they'll probably think you flunked your A'levels and couldn't make it to NUS/NTU/SMU. So you either stomach that or you go on and on explaining the entire concept of liberal arts colleges to them, which leads to the next problem.

2) Most people will go "huh you're studying ARTS? i never knew you were interested in that!" So you continue to explain the definition of liberal arts to them.

3) Job opportunities, local and to a less extent in the US. Okay in the US, most LAC graduates have no problem finding jobs, partly because most of them come from extremely well-to-do families with extensive connections. As for the international students, if you're looking to go into the extremely competitive industries such as consulting or investment banking, that you might be severely disadvantaged if you don't go to a target school - a term that means where the top investment banks and consulting firms go on campus to recruit at. Very very few LACs are considered targets - Amherst, Williams, and maybe Middlebury and Pomona are considered semi-targets. This doesn't mean that firms don't recognize the calibre of LAC students. It's just a matter of fact that the small number of students at a LAC (and thus less number of students interested in IB/Consulting) doesn't justify going down there to recruit. As for job opportunities back in SG, I figure that you probably would have a lot of explaining to do to your HR, but if you have decent A'levels to back you up and prove that you didn't go to a LAC because you couldn't get into local unis, I believe you should do fine... But honestly, I feel like the best path is to get a great undergraduate education at a LAC, and then do graduate studies at a prestigious grad school (master's or PhD depending on your interest and career path) to make up for the lack of reputation of your undergrad school. Most LAC graduates go to grad schools anyway, and LACs typically feed well into top grad programs.

4. Lack of Singaporeans. This may sound trivial, but it really isn't. Suppose you go to Cornell or UMich or UChic, you'll be surrounded by so many Singaporeans that you sometimes don't realize you're studying overseas. I'm not saying that it's imperative that you go to a school with a ton of singaporeans and then keep amongst yourselfs in a clique. That's defeats the purpose of going overseas to study. But having a comfort zone of singaporean friends really helps a lot when you're far away from home. At a liberal arts college, you would be lucky to find someone in your year who's going to the same college as you. The upside is that it forces you to make friends with the americans, or other people whom you might not befriend otherwise; but trust me, you'll feel lonely sometimes and look at friends at Cornell/Chicago/Brown/UMich/Duke with envy and wish that you had the company of some friends from home..

lOngbOWmeN

while i acknowledge the unique benefits of an LA education, ^^ is arguable...

1)articulation - any school that has a fair amount of participatory learning would hone a student's articulation and presentation skills, be it in the arts/humans/social sciences or the natural/bio med sciences, i dont see why having a LA curriculum will necessarily make you more eloquent

2)critical thinking - ANY fairly rigorous field of study will stimulate critical thinking and analysis (apart from a degree in some hospitality or gardening crapshoot)....in fact, i would think that delving deeper would be more stimulating and engaging than glazing the surface of many subjects

3)creative thinking - the only tangible advantage of a LA education would be having an interdisciplinary approach/paradigm resulting from a fusion of knowledge from different fields....even so i have my doubts as to the extent of this, as its really arguable that taking one course in maths, one in science, one in arts etc. will equip you with the necessary foundation to draw substantial links between different fields

one thing thats beyond doubt is the vast financial resources that US unis have, exposing students to a slew of experiences and opportunities that will undeniable give them an edge over their peers in other countries....apart from that, i dont think that LA really value-add, though thats a personal opinion

screwitlah

woebegone, I agree with what you say except for this:

Most LAC graduates come from families with connections? That statement sounds immediately dubious. LAC people come from everywhere; I'd say that well-connected families make up the minority. LAC grads have no problem finding jobs in the U.S. simply because people over there know LACs are (gasp!) elite.

longbowmen:
U.S. schools do involve a lot more class participation - especially for LACs with their very small class sizes and close faculty interaction. And the teaching of these oratory skills is not about the curriculum alone, but more importantly the PEOPLE you're surrounded by. I think it's very fair to say that Americans are generally more outspoken, confident and articulate than Singaporeans. Trust me, their skills and their friendliness will rub off on you whether you like it or not. Moreover, all of my friends in overseas universities can attest to how they've forced themselves to speak up just simply because everyone else in class is basically fighting among themselves to speak. Nobody there is afraid of giving the wrong answers. It'll change you. Until NUS/NTU/SMU have a similar environment, I don't see how the local experience can compare to the overseas one.

staying with ONE subject for 4 years would bore me to death. I don't know about you, but I want at least my undergrad experience to be stimulating and engaging. Grad school is understandable.

YOU

Can anyone explain what's the SIM university in Singapore? I just recently heard of it and it doesn't seem to be very popular.. Just curious..

screwitlah

it's a private university that offers both fulltime and part-time degrees. the general perception is that its for those who can't make it into NUS SMU or NTU.

lOngbOWmeN

actually i wasnt talking about local unis, as i posted in the NUS thread, theres an overemphasis on memorisation and regurgitation as compared to learning/absorbing in the local schools (take NUS med's 24/7 marathon mugging style for instance)....while LACs do benefit from the small size/high teacher-student ratio hence better class participation, most of the larger US unis dont, hence apart from the quality of the student body and finances, i dont see a distinct edge in the liberal arts education

i think you are entitled to this opinion, but i still contest your point about the need for a broad but relatively less deep curriculum to stimulate and engage....i think it ultimately boils down to personal preference, a passionate individual who loves what his learning (be it broad, varied subjects or a single specific field) will do well regardless of the system, which again brings me to my point that while the LA education has its uniqueness, i dont see it as necessarily better or superior to other systems say the UK/Aus/Canada (student quality and finances aside)

woebegone

LBW, there's a reason why i touted the benefits of a LAC education as a third person. The fact is, I am still not very convinced that LAC education trains analytical skills (creativity perhaps) better than a research university does. As you said, any reasonably rigorous curriculum can train one to think critically, and I concur. But I think that you would have to concede on the point about articulation. I don't think there's a zilch of doubt that US universities hone one's articulation skills better than local or UK unis (where one rarely have to speak up at all, except perhaps at SMU, where you're trained to do the wayang talk). In US universities, and especially so in a small liberal arts college, where you are in a class that is not only very small, but also one that is filled with naturally-outspoken americans, you will be encouraged (or forced) to speak up. And that, in the long run, naturally hones one's oratory skills more than just doing a couple of prepared-speech presentations in class every now and then, or the lame raise-your-hand-to-say-something-so-that-the-TA-can-put-a-check-next-to-my-name sort of class participation that the local unis are breeding.

As for the thing about connections. Well, there's a stereotype that says that LACs are filled with preppy, white, upper-class kids. And stereotypes, while not always accurate, always reflect some truth. Speaking from my own experience and based on my admittedly limited social circle, it seems like if someone's not on finaid or an international student, he's invariably a doctor's kid, a lawyer's kid, or an investment banker's kid. Okay that's obviously an exaggeration but you get what I mean. The point is, most people have some kind of connections, and even if they don't, they probably have a close friend who does.

lOngbOWmeN

i understand that LACs do have this distinct advantage of small sized class participation....but most large US unis (where TA takes over the teaching) dont have it, and not all UK unis are void of it either

and as to americans being more outspoken, yes compared to asians, but compared to their white counterparts thats arguable as well

100%Tuna

harlow guys! i'm doing jc right now (j2; and it's damn stressful). actually, i'm a foreign scholar (indian) and got a 2190 for my SAT1 (first attempt)... am posting out my stats profile... just check it out and tell me what are my chances. am not from the top 2 jcs, but somewhere colse after! =)
plus, what do you guys think are considered DECENT for getting into uber-US univs... am quite, actually very confused about the whole thingy! HELP!

Gender: M
Location: Singapore, Singapore
College Class Year: 2012
High School: Public
High School Type: sends some grads to top schools
Will apply for financial aid: Yes

Academics:
Class Rank: top 10%
Class Size: 763

Scores:

SAT I Math: 790
SAT I Critical Reading: 680
SAT I Writing: 720

Extracurriculars:

Significant Extracurriculars: 2007- Performed in the Production "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
2007- Singapore Youth Festival Silver Award (Dance)
2008- Ovidia Yu's "Death on Cue"
2008- Mardi Gras Dan
Leadership positions: Mazarin Leader (Community Service) in College
Creative Head- Indian Cultural Society
Athletic Status - list sport and your level: Cricket
Played in the 8-a-side and 11-a-side A division national tournament.
2nd runners up for 11-a-side
East Zone Colors Award (Distinction) for exceptional performance as a cricketer.
Volunteer/Service Work: *Headed the "Shoes for a Cause" Project
*Participated in the Raffles' Community Leaders' Forum.
*Participated in Go-Green-Day
Honors and Awards: AIME:9
AMC12: School Topper (115.5) (First Attempt)
Singapore Mathematics Olympiad: Bronze Award
NASA Ames Space Settlement Contest: Honours
Virtual Business Challenge: Finalists
College Summer programs: Not Offered

Colleges of Interest:

Brown University
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University
Columbia University
Cornell University
Dartmouth College
Harvard University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Princeton University
Purdue University
Stanford University
University of California - Berkeley
University of Chicago
Vassar College
Virginia Tech
Yale University


Desired College Characteristics:

Importance of cost: Secondary

100%Tuna

ermm.. I meant DECENT grades... yeah... thanks! =)

verse

woebegone:
care to elaborate more on the type of class participation at US LACs versus UK unis?

serf-

^^

not outstanding ECs, above seems very much like a laundry list but nothing really stands out. work on the reading score, SATs are good but can be easily improved through superscoring. i don't know enough about admissions standards to chance you for every school on that list, but with regards to CHYMPS (caltech, harvard, yale, princeton, mit, stanford) there just isn't the 'wow factor' to be considered a plausible candidate. to your query, "decent grades" for 'uber' US universities is generally straight-As on maximum courseload, or close. obviously, numerous exceptions abound.

i suggest you read up more about the universities on your own though, the current list you have has very very little coherence, and could make for radically different experiences. or maybe you're just applying to more so as to increase chances of fin. aid, but that seems unlikely considering the number of state schools there.

oh, and of course, do well for your a-levels. good luck (:

(btw, just out of curiousity: njc?)