mpnsoft

Vampiro:

Take different courses in different areas. Economics, Business, Marketing, Psychology, Math, etc. -- find what interests YOU. My Masters Degree is in Computer Science. However, I became interested in Computers as a direct result of an electronic music course (designed for music majors) that I took as a sophomore (I was a Biology/Chemistry major) in college. We had to write a program for a room-filling PDP-11 computer (it was 1978 and the first IBM PC wouldn’t exist for another few years).

As you take mores courses, several things will happen. First, you’ll come into direct contact with people who have both concentrated & diverse experience in these areas. Pick their brains! Second, you’ll get a better idea as to what reading material you should consider!

Be patient. Follow your passions & don’t be afraid to try new things.

mpnsoft

Sakky:

“Besides, look at it from the standpoint of the customer. Let's say that you are a big company that needs to upgrade your computer systems. So you hire one of these computer consulting companies (which are usually just small shops), and they come in and screw up your existing systems, causing all your systems to go down for several days, resulting in lost productivity and lost e-commerce sales.”

With regard to your example:

My software is used at thousands of locations daily by tens of thousands of users. Small businesses that use a single computer as well as larger entities that span multiple states & use tens or hundreds of interconnected computers on their networks. The software can’t be down. Especially at the larger companies. We go to great lengths to minimize problems. But they do happen. And, of course, we don’t handle the computer hardware these days. BTW, before you respond that that makes it “easier” for us in some way… keep in mind that 95% of the hardware vendors (many of them small – as you mentioned) – rather than work with us -- blame the software whenever problems occur. We must sometimes go to great lengths to prove our innocence! And we do record every single call… which has saved us on several occasions.

Here’s an example of a recent issue: the client thought they were doing backups. But, the backup system wasn’t actually working properly (w/o getting into details… hardware vendor’s fault). When the hard disk crashed… the client lost a great deal of data that had to be reconstructed. They were angry & upset. They learned a lesson. They’re not suing anyone. They did get a new hardware company & they’ve decided to take more personal responsibility with regard to their backups (e.g. verify them).

I have hundreds of much more intricate stories to span the past 20 years and could discuss this ad infinitum. And though it could change tomorrow, the reality is we’ve never been sued. And despite occasional gross negligence on the part of hardware vendors (selected by the client – not by us), I know of no occasions where those vendors have been sued either. That’s despite the fact that we must occasionally deal with very angry customers who make threats. And whether their right doesn’t matter to them. The only thing that’s important is their perception.

So I’m not talking about examples such as yours that requires supposition. I’m simply responding with my reality.

mpnsoft

Sakky:

We’re going in circles.

And there’s a difference between being sued vs. having a case that can proceed through the court system. In some states, there are risks assumed by the plaintiff for attempting to pursue a “frivolous” case (as determined by a judge). Regardless, with the exceptions of criminal behavior & cases where it was demonstrated that the corporate shell was put into place explicitly for the liability protection it provides (there are certain criteria that must be met here), I know of no such cases where personal liability was added to corporate liability. Do you know of any such cases? Are they part of the public record? Should I fire my tax attorneys for giving me less than stellar advice? I would certainly be interested in reading about such cases to determine if I need to bolster my own corporate and/or personal protection.

I would suggest that anyone who is interested research these subjects thoroughly on their own with the advice of an attorney… especially since laws differ somewhat state to state.

Are you an attorney? If so, in what state? May I be so bold as to ask about your experience in these matters? What do you do for a living? Or… are such questions improper protocol for a forum such as this? If so, I apologize. And I realize we're digressing from the thread’s main subject…

It’s ironic that if you read through my previous posts on this thread, I do have vulnerability to personal lawsuits that could divest me of my assets. Sue my wife for malpractice… and win. Everything we own is held jointly.

sakky

You should definitely inquire more with your tax attorneys because the personal liability shield is certainly not perfect.

Again, I would point to the example of consulting specifically. Just think of it logically. You start a consulting business in anything (computer consulting, management consulting, etc.), and you wrap it into a corporate shell. But what is consulting, really? It requires few assets. It requires few expenditures. All it is is just a matter of human capital. Anybody can basically start and shut down a consulting business in a matter of weeks, if not less.

So let's say I start Consulting Company A, within a corporate shell. I give terrible consulting advice that causes a client to completely screw up his computer systems. He sues my company (company A), and so I declare Company A to be bankrupt. But then I just start company B. But it's basically THE SAME COMPANY. After all, the principal consultant is still me. I am offering the exact same services as company A did. The only thing that changes is the company name. So then company B gets sued, so then I simply create company C, etc. etc. In these cases, there really is no point in suing any of these companies at all, because it just becomes a game of whack-a-mole. If your personal liability really is perfect, then there is no point in ever suing any of these consulting companies because all you would ever be suing is an empty corporate shell and so you would never be able to recover any damages.

I'll put it to you this way. As an entrepreneur, I'm sure that you are aware of the importance of liability insurance. Every independent computer consultant that I know has liability insurance to cover themselves in the event of contract disputes and so forth. But why pay for this if all you have to do is simply create corporate shell after corporate shell after corporate shell which always shields you from personal liability? Under this scenario, you never run the risk of losing any money in a lawsuit anyway, so why pay for insurance? If you lose a lawsuit, you just create another corporate shell, and that's gotta be cheaper than liability insurance premiums. So if what you are saying is really true, then I wonder why any of these consultants even bother getting liability insurance at all. Are they being stupid?


The point is, I think you have to agree that in any business in which there really are no assets and it's all a matter of paying somebody for their expertise, then there has to be a mechanism for clients to make themselves whole in the event of a legal dispute. And an individual consultant can't just simply hide behind personal liability shields forever.

mpnsoft

Sakky:

This is amusing! Once again, you’ve managed to ignore my points & requests so you can pontificate (almost 500 words!) with regard to the notion that every company’s owners bear personal liability (in all circumstances) and will lose everything when the first lawsuit (which is virtually guaranteed according to you) comes their way. You also seem to have become so caught up in your fallacious liability arguments that you fail to point out many other (real world) reasons that new businesses do fail (and there are many).

Regardless, according to research by economists Thomas Stanley & William Danko, though self-employed people make up less than 20% of the overall population, they account for two thirds of the millionaires.Isn’t that what this thread is about? Many posters mention Investment Banking (or variants) as an occupation that provides high compensation. My brother-in-law is a Managing Director at Credit Suisse (i.e. he’s someone else’s employee) in Manhattan. I don’t know how many Decembers he’s been working deals 24/7 to the last minute, worried about his job & bonus literally riding on a single deal… and in one case his entire department was in danger of being laid off.

I have thousands of separate, active clients. In other words, thousands of separate sources of income. Who has more stress? Me? Or my brother-in-law?

The point, once again, is that entrepreneurial pursuits are not necessarily the villains you make them out to be. You also seem to be under the impression (based on your examples) that every entrepreneur out there is either a computer consultant or small network installer of some kind. What about the guy who has a carpet cleaning business, or owns a Carvel (our local Carvel owner has a son at MIT)? What about my friend Scott around the block, who after years as a top actuary in a large firm, decided to go out on his own? He has substantial assets to lose if he gets sued. Or my next door neighbor, who now owns a New World Coffee & Bagel franchise (btw, he rents the space his store is in… so I’m not sure what will happen if he gets sued by the patron who slips outside [your scenario]. Inside slippage is of course, another matter). Right now, he’s probably more concerned about the four brand new food establishments affecting his lunch business... which I’m sure he’ll handle with his usual aplomb.

And from my perspective… disability insurance is generally a better bet than liability insurance. Do you think liability insurance would even be available (hey… you brought it up) if – as you suggest – lawsuits are inevitable for corporations and all the principals have personal liability? Would you be willing to sell such insurance? Wouldn’t that be a losing proposition (every client requires a payout)?

And finally… if you truly want to keep up with this side issue of liability (I can’t imagine what more I could add)… where are the real world examples I suggested you provide? You continue to create scenarios based on assumptions. Give us all a specific example… not what could happen… but what did happen. Then, explain how that case extrapolates to every corporation out there. After all, the tens of millions of us who are entrepreneurs in the United States are waiting for our collective chance to run for cover (551 words!!).

caa5042

200-300k is a lot of money.A LOT.Doesn't matter what that kids dad makes compared to an investment banker.Especially when very few people can make it into i-banking-Plus those who do, for the most part, dont 'enjoy' the job. I would cut off my balls to work as an engineer AND make more than 150k.

So Drew00- what firm does your dad work for? And what kind of engineer is he?

zxc123

i am not reading the whole threaf --but castration please wait.

While i am in my earlt 40's my AGi last year -includes stock and bonus was $337,000 working as a geologist --engineers at energy firms making same . We are hiring out of college at about $80,000 plus average $25,000 bonus

Oil and gas ins hiring many disciplines now.... might it cycle down sure ....but gain skills and experience and manage your life career inside or out of a large company

caa5042

How is that possible? $80,000? Which firm is this?How selective is it when it comes to hiring undergrad graduates?

sakky

Did I SAY that every entrepreneur is going to get sued every time? I am merely saying that lawsuits are sometimes a problem for some entrepreneurs. I think it is YOU that is now being fallacious by pretending that it is never a problem.

So what if he gets laid off? He then just finds another job somewhere else. Worst case scenario, as a former MD at a major bank, he just gets a nice cushy job in the corporate finance department of some regular company. Sure, he'll make less money than he was making, but he's still going to make a pretty nice income. And the key is - if he takes this job, he never risks everything. You, as an entrepreneur, can be sued, and for something that has nothing related to your business at hand. Again, if some client comes to your office and slips and falls down the stairs, he is going to sue you. If you forget to shovel the snow on the sidewalk outside your office and somebody slips and falls on it, they are going to sue you. He is not going to be sued for any of these sorts of things.


Nobody is saying that entrepreneurship is a bad thing. Please point to the quote where I said that entrepreneurship is bad. Can't do it, can you?

I am saying that it is inappropriate for certain people, in particular, for those people who do not have the right personality for it. I think it is up to you to provide a BALANCED discussion of the good AND the bad points of entrepreneurship. To imply that entrepeneurship is always good and that everybody should do it is simply wrong.

Like I said, I know many entrepeneurs that have failed. Silicon Valley is full of them. Some because of bad business plans. Some because of a bad economy. Some because, well, they got sued out of existence. You have to admit that all of these people would have been better off financially if they had simply taken regular jobs.

Uh, why wouldn't this insurance be available? Car insurance is readily available, not because everybody gets into accidents, but because some people do. Health insurance is readily available not because everybody gets sick or injured but because some people do. The whole idea of insurance is to be able to aggregate and arbitrage risk.

Uh, I think the mere fact that a market exists for insurance PROVES IMPLICITLY that these MUST be happening. After all, if nobody ever got into any car accidents, then there would never be any need for car insurance. If nobody ever got sick, then nobody would ever need health insurance. The simple fact that liability insurance exists and entrepeneurs are buying it must mean that some of them are getting sued. Surely you are not trying to argue that car accidents or disease does not exist. By the same token, I don't think you can seriously argue that personal liability for entrepeneurs never exists.

mpnsoft

Sakky:

To begin...

No... you never say it directly... Instead you say things like...

or

from your prior posts... but you never seem to get past the "I know" or supposition stage. More?

mpnsoft

Sakky:

Another:

Aside from the fact that we've hijacked this thread...

For the third time? WHO ARE THESE "MANY ENTREPRENEURS" YOU KEEP REFERRING TO (in one way or another) OVER & OVER? WHAt BUSINESSES? WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?


Isn't this your first use of the word "sometimes" with regard to entrepeneurs on this thread?. And I believe post #33 (and others) address your accusation w/regard to "never". Why have you suddenly moderated your statements? And why do I feel I'm like I'm in a Monty Python sketch? My apologies to everyone for all the extaneous verbiage. I hope that -- if you're interested -- you carefully read the posts & come to your own conclusions.

Sakky, you haven't managed to provide anything I've requested over the past week And anyone here can feel free to PM me (some of you already have) if you're interested in determining what gives me the right to discuss the subjects of my posts (running a business, compensation, computer science, etc.)... I also hope you'd expect that of anyone who offers advice...

sakky

And like I said again, every single computer contractor and consultant that I know has protected themselves by buying personal liability insurance, despite also having incorporated themselves. Are you saying that they are all stupidly throwing money away?

You keep asking the same question, and I keep giving you the answer.

Yes, I encourage everybody to read all of the posts and come to your own conclusions. When did I ever say that EVERY entrepreuneur gets sued out there? I have always said that there are entrepreneurs out there that are getting sued, and if you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to be cognizant of this fact. To say otherwise is to simply perpetuate a falsehood.


I encourage anybody who wants to know more about entrepreneurship to PM either mpnsoft or myself, or do their own research on personal liability as it has to do with entrepreneurship and draw their own conclusions.

sakky

And what is your point? Are you saying that you know my friends better than I know them? Are you saying that the entrepreneurs that I know aren't paranoid about being sued?

Look, you have your opinion, and I have mine. I think the people here have the right to different opinions. It seems to me that you are simply attempting to restrict not only my right to free speech, but more importantly, the right of the readers here to read a diverse set of opinions. It seems to me that you want people to read only your opinions, and nobody else's. What you seem to forget is that what you have to say are simply OPINIONS, nothing more, nothing less. We are all entitled to our own opinions, and we are all entitled to express them.


My opinion has always been clear: some people do not have the proper psychological makeup to be entrepreneurs. To become an entrepenuer is to assess exactly what kind of person you are, and whether you can handle the entrepreneurial lifestyle. Not everybody can do it.

mpnsoft

Sakky:

Once again you've dodged the requests for facts and prior case law... and attempted to change the thrust of your prior posts. Obviously, as you've so aptly demonstrated, you know far more about the subject than I.

I'll bet you can keep going back & forth like this forever. If the last paragraph of your last post was consistent with (and the main point of) your early posts, this dialog would never have taken place.

It's Memorial Day. And I'm walking out the door to spend the day on the beach with my wife, daughters, and friends. Take care...

kyzan

uh..no offense but can u guys shut up and get back to the point of this post? How does one usually become a CXO? What sort of majors did they do and what fields did they start out in? I know this varies but in general. (note that the x is a variable)