UCLAri

coolweather,

I've already had that happen (denied healthcare), but do you honestly believe that we'd be better off paying out of pocket for MRIs, bypasses, and expensive emergency surgeries?

While I do agree that we should reform how insurance is done, I don't think for a moment (based on my knowledge of actual costs of procedures and how money works) that we should get rid of it altogether. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take my chances with insurance than pay tens of thousands of dollars for treatment out of pocket.

ccguy

it seems that most people i know going for med school aren't really that interested in helping people or "passion" or any of that, it's more about the money/prestige. most pre-meds i know would never even consider going into nursing school, but isn't nursing helping people too? what about social work?

on the other hand, it doesn't necessarily take passion or a willingness to help people to be a doctor. you can be mother theresa, but if you can't perform this key operation successfully.. well then..

the real question should be, what factors promote the most desirable outcomes, namely, successful treatment of patients? does passion lead to less negligence or errors? do higher insurance premiums prevent less errors? and we still have to take into account the opinions of doctors, because how they feel might affect their performance or drive them out of the profession altogether leaving a shortage in key specialties. etc. unfortunately, the CEOs may be more concerned with THEIR bottom line, not the patients'.

also, i don't think the prestige of being a doctor/lawyer has necessarily decreased, perhaps just the opinion. i recall polls saying that nurses are among the most "trusted" professions (lawyers and car salesman towards the bottom end), but you'd have difficulty finding someone's eyes light up saying "wow" if you tell them you're going to nursing school. vice versa with law. it's still pretty impressive to tell people you're going to law school.

the article deals with appeal. from my experience, most pre-med/pre-law students i know are not really aware of the bad sides of law or medicine and tend to think they'll be livin' the life once the education is done and over. and so i don't really think students view medicine or law negatively, i just think they happen to find other careers more enticing. it's like the harvard law grad who was lured into investment banking - i'm sure many of those instances they had an interest in pursuing law but realized investment banking was simply a better deal for them.

if you ask anybody, i think law, medicine, and successful businessmen would still be the most prestigious. i don't know anyone who's ever said "being a lawyer is a bad idea!" or something along those lines.. i only hear that from my parents.. or on CC xD

LACalum

Shrinkrap, you are correct, I should have said most SUCCESSFUL medmal cases are done in response to someone suffering physical and financial hardship due to a mistake. I'm sure there are medmal lawyers out there pursuing many frivolous lawsuits, but (although I'm not a lawyer), it saddens me to see people label them all as "ambulance chasers," because many of them are doing their job quite responsibly.

Atana

The colleges have overproduced in advanced degrees of all kinds. However within law and medicine other factors may be contributing to the declining numbers of new entries.
At some institutions those who chose to pursue these fields are sometimes charged higher tuition than would the tuition for other disciplines. Within the medical field this could be justified (in a small way) because of the need for advanced research facilities and equipment. How this enhanced tuition would be the case for a legal student compared to a historian or sociologist gods only know.
Another factor has been the escalating costs of college, with a per year increase of about 6% since the early 2000's. Although docs and lawyers can be paid well out of school, they're in a considerable bind when that income is compared to the costs of their education and credentials. The situation has become so bad that the AMA recently asked the Bush administration to reinstate and extend loan deferments for those who'd obtained medical degrees. It's a matter of time before the ABA tries to obtain the same relief for their members.
A long term problem might result in which many who do obtain Md's or Juris Doctorates may have to make the decision to take their abilities elsewhere. They do not have the option of dropping out of the economy (as some in other fields have been recently forced to do)-so likely we'll see an exodus of highly trained legal and medical people to other countries which lack 'agreements' with our SL industry. A bad sign for the scientific and social development of this country (and for that matter the collegiate system), if these trends do develop and continue.

nyumom

I've observed a shift from students who in the past would have gone to med or law school and are now pursuing careers in the arts. Also, many of these students are sons/daughters of physicians, and they're choosing fields like film, drama, etc.

soccer_guy472

I'm actually glad. If a prospective med student finds out they can "make more money" by going into business, then GO INTO BUSINESS. I am so sick of people becoming doctors for financial security...sure it pays well, but if you don't have a passion for it, you will begin to loathe it. That means you will begin to have a negative attitude toward every aspect of the job, including the patients. This leads to bad patient/doctor relationship, which makes the patients think less of doctors...which is the cause of the whole problem. Bleh..

piccolojunior

wow...can you not read? I said the decline for medicine was not good.

LOL@ categorizing lawyers as fighting for "justice"

Shrinkrap

"Also, many of these students are sons/daughters of physicians, and they're choosing fields like film, drama, etc."

Someone on CC posted something that I have repeated often. Something related to first generation immigrants are plumbers, second are doctors, and third are poets. My older sister and I are lawyers, my younger brother a film director. He really resonated with that quote as well. Sigh...looks like both of my kids prefer the "arts". I just hope they can handle a change from "the lifestyle they have been accustomed to".

seafoodlover

I have advised my daughter who wants to go to law school..."fine, its a great education, but then go into government service. Its more stable, you can do some actual good for the country."

There is not enough space in this website for me to delineate what I think about the pitfalls of the legal and medical professions and some of the "characters" therein.

There are plenty of decent human beings in both professions, doing their best under difficult circumstances. But there is also a fair number of raving jerks in both professions whose best attribute is the ability to make money. True, you can find such people in any profession, but there is an expectation that you will find better people in the professions, and its very disturbing when you dont. In the legal profession, for example, you have to watch from three angles at all times: your opposing counsel, your client, your law partners. All three are capable of destroying you.

Caveat Emptor.

Infinite_Truth

I'm VERY happy that interest in law is declining - less competition for me when I get my T14 Law Degree! Muahaha!

obsessed mom

We are a physcian family. I have watched our income decline over the years due to HMO's, needed personnel to fulfill all the clerical work, etc. One way my husband, a sole practitioner, coped was by joining forces with other solo guys. However, they are becoming dinosaurs. I lived through medical school and a residency and the hardwork, long hours, weekends, (even now after 26 years) should be compensated. When America expects individuals to go into $200K debt, to delay their young adult lives for little compensation, then the entire country will face a crisis. To expect less is naive. Other countries with socialized medicine pay for their MD's education. We have the best physcians in the world because the profession attracts the best and the brightest. If monetary compensation isn't there to attract, the demand will be less as will the qualifications.
I am a social worker and I can tell you firsthand that the altruistic reward wears off over time if the pay remains poor. Personal satisfaction does not pay the bills or help send one's kid to college. Nor does it add to one's self-esteem.
And finally, besides the senseless malpractice suits, no one mentioned the cost of modern technology that has escalated healthcare costs and not MD incomes.

dtex50

Well stated, obsessed mom. Also, the use that modern technology is usually the "standard of care". Failure to apply the technology could be interpreted as falling below the standard of care (read: negligence). This is called defensive medicine, folks. Even if it wasn't really necessary, there are a few fellow doctors ("expert witnesses") who will be glad to pocket $10K-20K to swear that is was.

dtex50

Atana (#34) "How this enhanced tuition would be the case for a legal student compared to a historian or sociologist gods only know."

My quess would be law school faculty salaries.

bearpooh

"I've observed a shift from students who in the past would have gone to med or law school and are now pursuing careers in the arts. Also, many of these students are sons/daughters of physicians, and they're choosing fields like film, drama, etc."

And that is definitely the right decision for them to make. We are a two physician family. I discouraged my children from doing medicine (while telling them that if they really wanted to do medicine, I would respect their wishes and would do everything possible to help them do it.).

As a result, one is doing law at Oxford and the other is heading there for a degree that will result in a career in either management consultancy or investment banking. I really do not care hugely what they do, as long as they are happy in their careers.

Yes, we have a large number of patients who think we are marvellous and have saved their lives. Yes, we have a popular and thriving practice. However, I still find it an effort to go to work in the mornings. My primary source of intellectual satisfaction these days is studying law and mathematics. Even reading the NEJM is not much fun anymore.

EECS@JHU

Parents who are physicians - yes you have problems, and perhaps there is no more intellectual stimulation however you would have to be naive to believe that this is only the case with medicine.

All professions have plus points and negative points. Please don't be foolish enough to negatively influence your children's (medical) ambitions. Just let them follow their hearts.

I'm a very lucky son, in the sense that my dad now 61, has worked in many different fields academia, law, consulting and banking. He shares his experiences with me very often - and his principle is that irrespective of which profession a person works in it is up to the individual himself to keep himself happy.

Medicine is still IMO the noblest profession - so please be proud of what you do and continue helping people.