cellardweller

futurenyustudent:

The history of professions appropriating the doctor title for social status is a long one.

Medical schools in the US awarded Bachelors of Medicine to their students until the 1800s, when they raised the status above mere alternative medicine practitioners by awarding the Doctor of Medicine or MD Degree. Osteopathic medical schools awarded the D.O.degree, although DOs were officially considered members of a "cult" until 1951 by the American medical Association and it was unethical for an MD to associate with a DO. In California after the State banned licensing of DOs in 1962, you could pay $65 and attend a short seminar to trade in your DO degree for the more respectable MD degree. (Most did). Pharmacy schools were not to be left behind and started awarding their own professional doctorates in 1990 (D.Pharm.) Let us not forget dentists (DDS), podiatrists (DPM), optometrists (OD), veterinarians (DVM and VMD) and audiologists (Au.D). Now that chiropractors (DC) and naturopaths (DN) are now officially "doctors" we should expect that acupuncturists (miserly Masters or M.Ac.) , physical therapists (MPT) are not that far behind.

Law schools followed medical schools in the 20th century (1902 Chicago law school). Esquire just did not provide the proper respect to their members. Yale law school, probably the most prestigious of all law schools, only awarded a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) until 1971 but finally caved in. Can you imagine nearly all Supreme Court Justices are miserly Bachelors not Doctors!

Among other professions, architects are the latest in the race for title inflation. The NAAB is already allowing architecture schools to "upgrade" the MArch title to D.Arch. It is already being debated that all architects should be doctors. It is probable engineers, urban planners and designers will follow just to keep up. Accountants, financial planners won't be far behind. Some business schools issue a DBA, and that trend will certainly accelerate. Who wants to be a Bachelor or Master when you can be a DOCTOR! Even the Donald Trump University will want to give them out (online)!

Whatever titles the professional associations decide to grant themselves to aggrandize their status, these are not Doctorates which are strictly academic degrees.
See Academic degree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sakky

Yet the fact of the matter is that the median household income in Manhattan in 2005 was only $47k a year. These aren't all individual wage-earners, these
are households. Hence, somehow, half of the households in Manhattan in 2005 were actually making less than $47k a year. Yet somehow, they seemed to get by.

New York locations by per capita income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore, when you talk about the cost of living in NYC being so high, you have to ask yourself why that is, and the core reason is that NYC is a very desirable place to live. Let's face it. NYC is the most interesting city in the US and arguably in the world with a breadth of cultural and economic opportunities that is cannot be topped anywhere else in the world. That is why people want to live there. If there was nothing to do in NYC, if there was nothing interesting about the city, then nobody would want to live there and consequently the place would be dirt cheap.

For example, I used to live in a relatively cheap part of the country. Sure, you could buy a big house for not much. Sure, the lifestyle was pretty inexpensive. But so what? There was nothing to do there. You get off of work, and the only thing you can do is go home and watch TV or surf the Internet. On a really 'wild' night, you might actually go to the mall. Ooh, thrilling. But that's all there is to do. In contrast, to borrow a Samuel Johnson phrase, if you're tired of NYC, you're tired of life.

Furthermore, the economic opportunities where I used to live are not vibrant by any extent. There are only a few employers that offer decent jobs (i.e. something better than just working at the mall). Some of them are quite far away. In contrast, NYC abounds with many of the best jobs in the world.

Furthermore, much of the higher cost of living in NYC is illusory. Cost of living calculators presume that a person is going to try to live the exact same lifestyle in 2 locations. But that never happens. People will rationally adjust their lifestyle according to whatever is available in the location they are at. Take transportation. If you live in NYC, you don't really need a car. NYC has one of the finest public transportation systems in the world. But back in the place where I used to live, you need a car. There is no public transportation. Similarly, those cost-of-living calculators will try to compare 2 people trying to buy the same size of a house in 2 locations. But come on. If you live in NYC, do you really need to buy a house? In particular, do you really need to buy a house that is of the same size as what you would get in the boonies? Who does that?

The bottom line is that while I agree that you're paying more to live in a place like NYC, you're also getting more . It all comes down to basic economics. NYC is expensive because it's a desirable place to live. If nobody wanted to live there, then the costs would drop off a cliff.

CATennisPlayer

I'm a freshman Neuroscience major at USC, and I started as pre-med (like everyone else in my Bio and Chem classes). It was not unusual for me to stay up past 3AM on a regular basis, just studying. Everyone did. And it was on one of those nights (or mornings, as it was), when I saw the sun rise outside of my dorm room window that I said to myself, "THIS ISN'T WORTH IT!!!" For me, at least, it's not worth the cost of a healthy social life. It's not worth being unable to involve myself in other activities. And it's definitely not worth MY health in pursuit of the health profession. They make it so difficult (I know, I know, because "you have to be sure this is what you want") that it either scares people away or makes many (at least many of the people I know) lose the golden years of their life over it. Is that, really, what it's supposed to be? Do we really want our future doctors to be virtually anti-social for so many years? I'm just speaking from what I've seen in others who have gone through the whole process and experienced first hand. Here's an article that some of you might find interesting...

Opinion: Guest Column: Law of the jungle for premeds - OCRegister.com

I'm rushing a fraternity next semester, and I'm going to enjoy my college experience while continuing to work hard in academics. For now, I'll be looking into how I can incorporate neuroscience into the business world (pharmaceutical companies, perhaps?). I like people, and I like my major. I just detest the system.

dtex50

to CATennisPlayer: Never regret your decision and never let your emotions bite when you hear the condescending phrase "Well, medicine isn't for everyone". Many of the premeds will be in for a shock if and when they hit med school. The buzz word for colleges these days is "diversity". It is rare to peruse a college web site without tripping over the "D" word. I think med schools were way ahead of the curve with respect to diversity. Not necessarily racial or economic diversity, but diversity in life experience. I started med school at 36 (GED,military,college, 2 grad degrees later). I interviewed at 8 schools and met students from each institution. With one exception, the student bodies were very diverse. At my chosen school, the AVERAGE age of the first-year student on the first day of school was 26.7 years. Of course there were the classic track 22 year-olds, but there were also many nurses, EMT's, med techs, and ex-military. How would you like to be one of the hyper-competative folks you describe and be competing with an ex-combat medic for that "A" on your surgery rotation? At that level, torpedoing someone else's work or consistently practicing strategic one-upmanship on teaching rounds can have unforeseen consequences.

rocketman08

cellardweller summed up the situation with the so called 'professional doctorates' quite nicely. Physicians have no more right to call themselves Dr. than an architect, engineer, lawyer, physical therapist, nurse or anyone else that has completed a professional trade school and many other professions are now jumping on the bandwagon. Anyone who suggests otherwise dosen't understand what the title means. When medical and law schools started issuing 'doctorates' instead of the previous bachelors or masters level degrees they only changed the name but not the content and it's still a masters level of training (yes it takes longer than some courses but that dosen't mean it's a higher degree).

The key difference between an actual doctorate and these so called 'professional doctorates' is in the requirements for the degree. To recieve a doctorate (and be addressed by the historically accurate use of the title Dr) one must not only demonstrate an advanced knowledge of a subject but also complete extensive original research in that subject AND present and defend the findings of that research, and the resulting new knowledge, to an independent panel of doctors of that subject (commonly called the 'thesis defense'). However professional degree programs do not contain this key component and base the degree purely on the learning of a set of skills and then testing proficiency in those skills. This is not a doctorate (although it didn't stop the medical profession from incorrectly insisting that they too should be called Dr.) and now all the other professions are jumping on the bandwagon.

Case in point, this is why there are MD-PhD programs because the MD isn't a doctorate degree. One can go to a professional school to get an MD but if you want a doctrate level degree in medcine you can also do a PhD in a related subject (e.g. oncology research) where one adds the components of completion and defense of original research.

Strictly speaking, only MDs that also have a PhD have the title of Dr; however, at the current rate even your architect or anyone else that's graduated from a trade school will want to use the title.

bearpooh

"lol next on the list of what asian parents will be pushing their kids to do
1. engineering 2. medicine 3. ...what now?"

The Asian parents I know are pushing their kids into law, IB and management consultancy. After all, if it was good enough for the Clinton's daughter .... (Chelsea clinton is at Mckinsey these days, on a rumoured six figure salary )

Americanski

Of course, 20% of the people living there were in poverty (which would be 40% of those below median income), so they weren't "getting by" too well.

Sure, but part of the reason that it's desirable is because it's where the jobs are. This is especially true for law. People aren't doing doc review in NYC for 25 bucks an hour because they find the city so "interesting," it's because that work doesn't really exist outside of big cities.

Well, not really, for the amount of money you're spending. You have more in terms of job and cultural opportunities, but as you pointed out, you have much smaller, crappier living quarters and no car.

futurenyustudent

Chelsea doesn't work at McKinsey anymore. She works at a hedge fund someplace in NYC.

xALTRUISTx

Hmm...I'm going to be both a physician and a lawyer. This doesn't discorage me one bit.

I'm going into medicine for one reason and one reason only--to SAVE LIVES. Screw all the red tape. So I have to jump a few hurdles. Big deal. If it saves even ONE life, it's worth it.

I'm going into Human Rights law. Maybe, the lawyers who are unhappy are unhappy because they aren't in it for the right reasons or their reasons aren't all that compelling.

All you need is motivation and will power.

xALTRUISTx

Americanski, not having a car isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I take issue with this all too common belief that every individual in America MUST have their own PERSONAL car.

There are alternatives. Walk. Run. Bike. Take public transportation. Move closer. Whatever you do, STOP ACCELERATING CLIMATE CHANGE.

Just a short rant. Carry on.

futurenyustudent

I totally agree. It took me 3 days at home to realize how much I hate driving.

UCLAri

xALTRUISTx,

When do you plan on, oh I dunno, sleeping? Two high-powered careers?

BTW, how do you plan on funding both degrees? How will you finish your residency and also afford your JD? Have you thought this all through?

samonite16

xALTRUISTx,

Med school: 4 years (plus at least 3 in residency), $200,000
Law school: 3 years, $180,000

Starting salary for a lawyer at Human Rights Watch: ~$40,000

A good rule of thumb is not to take out more debt than you expect to make your first year out. You would be violating that almost 10X. I admire your altruism, but you need to be realistic.

lkf725

I'm late to this thread, but I have one comment on the OCRegister article posted by CAtennisplayer. What a shame that this is the kind of behavior that is rewarded by admission to med school. No wonder we have (some of) the kind of doctors we do who are arrogant, condescending and lack any bedside manner.

imaginationpower

Why do u guys worry or feel the need to inform xALTRUISTx of the costs?
I'm sure they've thought this through. You have no idea of xALTRUISTx's financial background.

"I admire your altruism, but you need to be realistic."
It may not be realistic to you, but it might be for xALTRUISTx.