tetrishead

Why? Why would you want to spend more years in school when the whole goal is to work? This is completely asinine. People who want to work in industry should go work in industry, because there's not a hell of a lot those two extra years of debt are going to do for you. A doctoral program is a whole different game than a masters degree, especially if you're expected to teach. There's this idiot ideal of "stay in school as long as possible and get a lot of fancy degrees and you'll make a ton of money!" when the reality is that the kids who get the hell out and start working immediately and do finance degrees when they have the time are way better off than someone who decided to spend extra years in academia. Degrees != jobs, spending two+ extra years in the workforce is a much better use of time for someone who actually wants to BE IN THE WORKFORCE.

You're told all top end quants have PhDs because all top end quants have rigorous mathematical backgrounds and almost no background in industry. The people who start working instead of spending 10 years getting a doctorate and developing a reputation are going to be managing those quants.

zoolander

usually they have a phd.
any quantitative major would do(engineering, math, physics, astrophysics etc.)

top masters math heavy masters of finance would do. they are relatively new so they are not that well represented

NYU has one of the best programs. Columbia, Chicago, Standford and some other schools all have top notch programs. some schools offer a masters in applied mathetics with a concentration in finance rather than a masters in finance

certainly a masters at a top school would do
i would call to ask or talk to someone who actually been in the industry

here is a link to the NYU website
it has some useful info

Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences NYU

here is a link to a finace job website, they list requirements

Finance jobs, investment banking jobs & recruitment: Finance jobs sector

another option to consider is operations and financial engineering which is pretty much computational finance

International Association of Financial Engineers - Home

michigan's financial derivitive club website

University of Michigan Financial Derivatives and Risk Management Club

hope it helps

choudvik

So, what kind of work experience should I have if I want to pursue a masters degree in mathematical/computational finance or financial engineering?

zoolander

go to the websites i gave you

well it depends
they have resumes of the people in the NYU program
they are all like geniuses( 4.0 gpa at MIT) and some already collected like 3 degrees or already have a phd.

and the website i gave you lists the job requirements

if you are not lazy, the answer is right there

quag_mire

most people who are admitted into those programs have interned as quants at investment banks....i dont think work experience is a prerequisite but it helps....most of them seem to have majored in math/applied math as undergraduates

choudvik

Wouldn't it be really hard to be able to intern as a quant in an investment bank with just a bachelor's degree. I know investment banks rarely hire non-ivy league graduates. I currently go to The Ohio State University, which is nowhere near ivy league caliber. I actually have applied for transfer admissions to some ivy leagues for mathematics. They are Penn, Yale, Columbia, and Cornell. If I get into any of those, do you think accepting admission will be beneficial if I want to intern as a quant? I imagine it still must be hard for someone with just a bachelor's degree even from an ivy league, right?

choudvik

Thank you Zoolander for taking time to post the links. I am definitely looking over them.

quag_mire

actually no, several of those people whose resumes i saw were like econ + math double major, econ + statistics double major etc, and they got internships as quants...you dont HAVE to be from an ivy....u can be from other top b schools like NYU Stern, U Mich Ross, MIT etc....and besides, those people might not have interned as undergrads, they probably interned as post-grad students

ramaswami

choudvik, when quagmire talks of MIT and Ross and NYU he talks of high end programs. Yes, Ohio State will be difficult to impossible, if you can transfer to Ivy do so. Yes, internship matters. For most of the quant masters program, a math background is essential, that is, PDEs, real analysis, etc. They all say that the main reason someone is rejected is inadeq math background.

Historically, there were no masters programs in Financial Engr or Computational Finance, hence quants came from PhD in astrophysics, etc. Since mid 1990s, starting with CMU quite a few have emerged, please note it is a ruthlessly competitive field. Go to Princeton's ORFE site, go to FAQ, there is a link to articles on quant finance and general finance education, I am not good at attaching links, if you fail to access I will ask my son to send it, you need to get into CMU, Columbia, NYU, Haas, Princeton, Stanford or Chicago, then PhD may be redundant.

tetris, the PhDs who work for masters work for the MBA types from HBS, etc. They don't work for quant masters typically. The PhD is a credential at this point, it is easier to believe a PhD in astrophysics is a grand modeler than an MA. The point is the capacity to do high end research is important. No, you don't waste 10 years on a PhD, beyond the MA it should take 3 years. I will urge my son to get a PHD, being asinine!!!

choudvik

I will definitely have a good math background since I will either have majored in mathematics (most likely) or chemical engineering with a minor in mathematics. So, I guess going to an ivy will help with getting internships and work experience. One concern I have about ivies is their level of difficulty. Let's say I do in fact want to get a Ph.D. in mathematics, for which I don't need work experience or internships. I would probably look more competitive graduating from OSU with distinction in math with a 3.7/3.8 gpa with mostly As in my math courses vs. graduating from an ivy with like a 3.0/3.1/3.2 gpa with a lot of Bs in my math classes, right? So, could going to an ivy league hurt me possibly?

ramaswami

choudvik, no. Grad schools and professional schools know what GPAs mean at different schools. At an Ivy you are with bright, highly accomplished students mostly and the hidden curriculum, what you talk in the corridors, dorms and cafeteria, will shape you. That is more important than course grades.

tetrishead

Haha. Most Ivy league schools have grade inflation, choudvik. It's a harder to get into the Ivy league than it is to get kicked out--gentleman's B and all that. I'd be worried if you were attending Chicago or Swarthmore or something, not an Ivy. Of course it depends on where you go, Princeton and certain departments at Cornell and Dartmouth are generally the harshest graders in the Ivy league.
Getting a PhD in astrophysics is wasted time, and someone that's doing something that difficult with finance in mind will undoubtedly fail and/or produce low-quality work. PhD programs are not easy. At the doctoral level it doesn't matter if you're "good" at math, you have to love the subject, you have to be able to convince people that you love the subject and you have to perform well without distractions. If the entire rationale behind getting a difficult doctorate is to end finance as a quant it's likely admissions committees will see through the charade, and it's likely students will burn out early on.

Now if you love x subject, and it happens to be highly quantitative, and you want to be able to have some potential for doing certain things in industry in the future--that's another matter, but you're sure as hell not going to leisurely walk through a 4 year astrophysics doctorate program at CalTech. If the goal is finance, though, it's the equivalent of majoring in mathematics because you want to get a doctorate in economics and teach it. Yes, a mathematical background will help you in admissions, but you're basically wasting four years doing something you don't want to do so you can eventually do something you do want to do while putting yourself in a position where if you fail (which considering motivation plays a key role in these things is likely) or do worse than you thought you would you're shooting yourself in the foot in two ways--you didn't get to study the field you're interested in, and you've pretty much killed your grad school prospects.

ramaswami

tetris, perhaps you have misunderstood me or I have not explained myself properly. To do astrophysics Phd in order to do finance is asinine. The astro PhDs who are in finance probably never intended to work in finance, tried astro out of passion, couldn't find jobs or were later attracted to finance.

What I meant was that the best modelers and quants were PhD level people, not that only astro and math PhDs were recruited. I would be urging my son to get a PhD in financial engineering if he is seriously interested in the field.

zoolander

certain ivies have grade inflation

choudvik

I am aware of grade inflation at ivy leagues. But, it seems like they usually take place in humanities classes. The science grades range the whole spectrum from As to Fs, right? At least that's the way it seems to be at Penn. Also, even with grade inflation, getting an A or an A- would still be really hard at an ivy, right? I am currently at OSU, and I only have a 3.7 right now. So, about what gpa I could expect at an ivy like Penn or Yale? If I can get As in honors math classes at OSU, would I be able to get B+s or better in math classes at ivy leagues?