ramaswami

very little grade inflation at Ivies in sciences and engineering. The so-called grade inflation is essentially the increase in average grade from 3.1 to 3.3 in two decades across the Ivies. There has been some honors inflation, Latin honors, at Harvard.

quag_mire

Ramaswami, historically, quants have been Ph.Ds, but that trend has changed...in the past, there were no degrees in quantitative/mathematical finance offered, but now, there are several graduate programs in financial engineering, mathematical finance etc, that prospective quants dont need to get Ph.Ds....some quants today do get Ph.Ds, but the vast majority of them just get masters in quantitative finacne

Logos

Besides the moot point that quants are physics PhDs and all of that, the main reason they were hired directly resulted from a choice bunch of skills now compactified into the modern quantitative finance masters programs.

Many of the people going into these physics programs didn't have any intention of become quants, but with some of the more esoteric fields where vaunted academic positions are still the only alternative, the decent stable pay quants receive isn't such a raw deal.

ramaswami

quagmire, see my post number 24. For me to insist on a PhD in astrophysics in order to do FE would be like insisting on a classics tripos at Cambridge just because the early computer scientists did that.

Even now, DE Shaw and Ren Tech prefer PhDs in math and physics. And chess masters and Putnam winners. The discipline is less important than the capacity to do high end problem solving.

choudvik

Let's say that after completing a Ph.D. in mathematics, I decide that I want to become an actuary. I know that actuaries only need a bachelors degree. Would having a Ph.D. make me overqualified, and thus, hurt my chances of becoming an actuary?

kmzizzle

normally you'd want to complete some tests (~1-3) before graduating from 4 year for an actuary
if not, w/e, it will set you back a couple years however.

and most actuaries get their phd in math (not only bachelors) because the level of math needed to be a fellow or similar level is just so much more than BA level

sac

One advantage of a Phd program over a masters program that hasn't been mentioned is that, in quantitative fields, PhD students get full-rides. The Masters programs in Financial Engineering or Math that I've seen do not offer funding, and can cost you (in the case of Stanford, for example) upwards of $60,000 a year including living expenses.

This alone is not enough reason to get a PhD, of course. There are several others: 1. Potential flexibility later if you don't end up liking finance, or finance jobs get tight, or there is a period in your life when you would like to do something else like teaching. 2.The chance of more interesting work -- at DE Shaw, for example, they don't just plug numbers into models but develop new math that's related to finance, and now also to other applications like biology. 3.The experience of doing research and finding out whether or not you like it.

If you're someone whose life's goal is finance and you can afford a masters program in financial math and can get into NYU or Stanford or some other top program, then I agree the PhD is probably not necessary now that these programs exist. But not necessary is not the same as not worthwhile.

sac

As for the original question about which PhD program: statistics, operations research, applied math, computational math, computer science (if they're heavily involved in scientific computation), as well as some math departments and interdisciplinary institutes likes Stanford's Management Engineering and Science (cross between econ, applied math, cs and operations research) may all have faculty working in financial math depending on the university.

thejoker0909

does anyone know the difficulty of getting into a program like Columbia M.S. in financial engineering. What is the acceptance rate? What's a good ug major?

choudvik

Thank you, kmzizzle. I am glad to hear that having a Ph.D. in math would not overqualify for me a job as an actuary, but would actually benefit me. I completely agree with you, sac that Ph.D. students are at an advantage since they get full rides whereas masters students don't get any funding. That has actually been a prominent thought in my mind regarding whether to get a masters or a Ph.D.

quag_mire

this question has been in my mind for quite a while too...u have to do insanely well as an undergrad in some mathematical major....i plan to do undergrad Finance + math/statistics at Stern, because most of the resumes of the students in those programs say that their undergrad major was either math, applied math, econ, statistics, or in some cases, electrical/computer engineering....i guess to even be considered competitive, you have to be majoring in one of those areas, along side which you must have done research/independent study as an undergrad.....a high GPA (3.7++) is almost assumed of the applicants who apply

ramaswami

sac, that what was what I was getting to vis a vis a PhD program before tetris jumped on me. Flexibility and higher end work at places like Shaw. I disagree with you regarding the emphasis on full ride, it is more economic to take a loan for $60,000 and get into the workforce than linger in a doctoral program for 4 years because of a free ride. Of course, you have made it clear that this is only one reason.

I examined the curriculums of Stanford, Chicago, Cornell, CMU yesterday. They all need math almost to a minor or major level and if you do stats or engineering etc they insist on math up to PDE and Real Analysis. Can someone enlighten me as to what Real Analysis is and how it differs from what is described as Modern Analysis. And also what would be prereqs for this course. Thanks.

YOU

What if you're someone who just can't afford a financial engineering degree (lack of loans for internationals)..? What can you do if you don't want a PhD?

megaman123

There are a couple of banks that will give internationals loans as long as a they have a co-signer. Most schools that I have been looking at don't offer FA for internationals for masters in financial math, so I think I'll probably have to do loans myself.

quag_mire

^^actually, NYU has a special loan program along with Citibank which allows internationals to borrow up to the full cost of the education WITHOUT a co-signer.....so if you're admitted to NYU's grad program in mathematical finance, you can easily get a loan for the entire year's education