blackcat13733

Hey everyone! I'm in what you could maybe call a "unique situation" in regards to law school admissions... Could anyone give me some pointers based on the following info?

I am a second year undergraduate, but able to graduate this summer with a French major (I studied abroad in France in high school and went into college with lots of AP credits/ French credits, then took summer classes as well). I am hoping to get into one of the following T14 law schools for Fall 2012 (I know UCLA isn't "technically" T14 but for all practical purposes I'm considering it as such):

1. Yale
2. Georgetown
3. UChicago
4. UCLA

Yale (yes, I do realize how selective it is and am actually not planning on having a CHANCE of being admitted... but not even trying would be worse than getting denied!), Georgetown, and UChicago are my "long shot" schools while I'm pretty confident I can get into UCLA.

My main problem is... I go to a non-prestigious state school! Don't get me wrong, I obviously only have good things to say about the school I go to, but I was wondering if this will affect admissions decisions at all? To clarify, I go to the University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee. The reason I enrolled here instead of my other choices (UCLA and Wisconsin) is because I received a Full Ride Chancellor's Scholarship to go here, which I suppose could be regarded as prestigious in and of itself. But do you think admissions officers at law schools will look at it as such?

Another factor is the fact that I've been offered an internship this summer with the U.S. State Department at the United States Embassy in Paris. This is obviously a highly competitive, prestigious program. Will law schools look at something like this at all, or is it really just GPA and LSAT that are taken into account?

As for GPA and LSAT, I currently have a 3.5. I am taking the February LSAT so I don't have a score for that yet, although I have used a formula I found on a different thread here and it looks like based on my SAT score I should receive approximately 168 on the LSAT (obviously I know this is a LOOSE approximation and anything could happen with my ACTUAL test results, but I consider myself a good standardized test taker; I got a 2090 on the SAT and a 34 on the ACT without doing any studying whatsoever for either).

So how does this application package look!? Will admissions look favorably or negatively on a younger applicant (I'll barely be 20 come fall 2012)? What about the fact that I graduated so quickly; do you think that will be negatively or positively received?

Thanks for your advice! Cheers, and happy holidays!

hotdogseller

1. Undergrad prestige doesn't matter
2. Your softs will make not make a difference (yes, it is just LSAT and GPA)
3. You really need to prep for the LSAT, it's the most important part of the application
4. Graduating early won't really have a factor on admissions, but it will come in to play during OCI (you may be judged as too young)
5. Don't bother applying to Yale with a 3.5
6. We can't chance you for any schools until you have an actual LSAT score
7. lawschoolnumbers.com

zoeydoggie

You may want to rethink the idea of taking Feb. LSAT to attend Fall 2012, along with what hotdogseller said. Graduating early may make a difference, maybe not, but overall it seems you are rushing into this without doing any research. Read some of the pinned threads at the top, you are making some classic mistakes.

Don't waste your money applying to Yale.

jonri

Graduating early will hurt you, especially if try to move directly onto law school. You'll only have 3 semesters of grades when you apply, unless, you took a full semester's worth of courses in summer school. Even if you did, it will hurt.

Taking the LSAT in Feb will also hurt you. Doing so makes it unlikely you'll get into some of the schools on your list. Those schools will already have admitted most of their classes before you take the exam. As a practical matter, admissions to most law schools is rolling. The later in the cycle you apply, the worse your odds.

A few years back, there was a student with a higher gpa and LSAT from UWisc-White Water who was graduating in 2 years. He at least applied early in the cycle. He got shut out at all the top 14.

Your plan is not a good one.

bluebayou

Congrats on the government gig, but just know, that while a nice-to-have, its not all that impressive (my son did camped out in an Embassy in a different country and barely lists it on his resume) and top law schools won't much care. "Prestigious" awards are Fullbrights, for example.

blackcat13733

Wow, thanks for the helpful input everyone! Are you all current or past law students (or parents of law students)? Looking back it looks like I didn't mention this (not that it really pertains to my original question in any way), but law school isn't my first choice for what to do next year; I simply want to leave doors open "just in case". I do eventually hope to go to law school, but next year I'm looking at participating in an English teaching grant program abroad. Even when I DO go to law school, I may not pursue a degree in the United States and opt to complete a law program in France where tuition is at least 30 times cheaper than it is in the States. But, it just so happened that the schools I was interested in here in the U.S. accept the February LSAT, which I still have time to prepare for and take. To put things in perspective, I walked into the ACT without any preparation whatsoever and tested into the 99th percentile nationwide. If I can obtain similar results on the LSAT with a bit of studying and preparation, than there's no reason why I shouldn't apply to the above schools even with a less-than-perfect GPA. I mean, even if I'm unsuccessful in my applications, or if I end up going abroad (which is the most likely scenario), it wouldn't hurt to at least apply to schools and have options for what to do next year, right?

And bluebayou, did your son participate in the State Department internship program as well? If so, then congrats to him! For what it's worth, that's probably something he should be putting on resumés from here on out (the undergrad internship program through the State Department is one of the most selective and coveted internships around!). While I know the internship is by no means EXTREMELY prestigious, I was still just wondering if activities like this counted for anything in applying to law school (unfortunately it sounds like the answer is a resounding "NO" haha). Unfortunately, Fulbrights (spelled with only one l) are available only to those who have completed their undergraduate education, so that's definitely not in the cards for me at this point...

jonri

Sigh.

Somehow we aren't getting through to you. If you have time to study and take the Feb LSAT, do so. Do NOT apply to law school for fall 2012 though.

1. It's really dumb to go to law school because you aren't sure what else you want to do.

2.Your message said you would start law school in the fall of 2012. Yes, the law schools on your list accept February LSATs. However, they also admit students on a rolling basis. By the time you get your scores, there will be very few places left.

3. Have you even registered with the LSDAS? Ordered transcripts? Asked for prof recs? If you haven't already done that, it's even less likely that you will get into law school for the fall of 2012.

4. Look at https://officialguide.lsac.org/Relea.../UGPALSAT.aspx

When I put in 3.50 and 168, you had roughly a 15% chance of getting into UCLA. If you apply in February, it's extremely unlikely that you will get in.

5. Where do you intend to practice law? If you plan to practice in France, fine. But French and American law are two different animals and studying in France isn't going to qualify you to practice law in the US.

blackcat13733

Thanks for your advice jonri, however, with all due respect I'm not really concerned with your opinion on whether I SHOULD or should NOT go to law school. That is not the question at hand, so there's no "getting through" that needs to be done at all here. As stated in my previous post, I don't think it could hurt to keep law school as an "option" for the 2012-2013 academic year. Even though I intend to pursue legal studies later on in life rather than immediately starting next year, keeping doors open is what applying for next year would be all about.

1. There are a myriad of perfectly reasonable motives that would inspire one to go to law school. Just because I'm not hashing mine out explicitly here doesn't mean I don't have any.

2. Indeed, I AM applying for admissions in Fall 2012, as originally stated in my first post and reaffirmed in my second post. As I also stated in my second post, if I don't get in, I don't get in! No harm done because I have lots of other options for what to do after my undergrad, some of which even come above immediately enrolling in law school.

3. I am well aware of the necessary steps I need to take for law school admissions, thank you very much. Some are already taken care of, some are in progress.

4. I haven't yet taken the LSAT, so while the 168 I gave was an approximated score based on my SAT results, it can't be concretely used to make any sort of deduction whatsoever. My actual LSAT score may be significantly lower or higher than that figure.

5. Again, my personal aspirations are not really of your concern. Although I can say this: If you think that someone who has studied and lived in both France and the United States is unaware of the differences in both legal systems and educational policies between these two nations, than you are sorely mistaken.

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this thread, however, I would appreciate it if you didn't contribute any more off-topic remarks in the future, especially condescending ones like "Your plan is a bad one." and "Sigh." Answering someone's questions with concrete data or personal experience (your story about the UW-Whitewater student was a bit iffy; the only pretext you gave was "there was a student...", without stating your personal connection to said student to validate the experience you told about) is helpful. Making opinionated statements is not.

Cheers!

parentofpeople

If you don't like Jonri's honest reply then you may be out of luck. Pretty unlikely you would get anyone to disagree with his/her advice. If you don't really want advice, but rather to just have someone cheer you on in whatever you have already decided to do might I suggest a parent or SO?

blackcat13733

As I previously stated, I sincerely appreciate valuable personal experience and objective data, analysis, or facts pertaining to the questions I put forth in this thread (see previous replies for great examples of such), even if they are contrary to my goals. Personal opinions of anonymous strangers on a forum, however, are of no value to me, or really to anyone for that matter. If personal opinions ARE going to be expressed, online posting etiquette (as well as general social custom) dictates that they should be put forth in a less off-putting manner (read, for instance, zoedoggie's post).

YOU on the other hand, parentofpeople, are committing the ultimate faux pas of contributing absolutely NOTHING worthwhile to the discussion all while making ill-mannered remarks of a personal nature. Please DO NOT post in this thread if you do not have something of value to contribute to the discussion (which, based on your previous post, you clearly do not).

Thanks to all those who DO have valuable insight on my questions, whether it affirms OR discourages my desired actions!

LazyKid

In short, you will need 170+ to get into a T14 law school given that you have a 3.5 GPA and graduating early (which is a disadvantage), unless you are of black or hispanic ethnic background.

Also, UCLA cares a lot about GPA and they tend to accept only 3.6-3.7+ GPA candidates regardless of LSAT. You may be out of luck with UCLA.

Don't project your LSAT score based on SAT. LSAT is much more difficult, not to mention these two exams test totally different abilities. SAT is a test you can just walk into without prep and do well. LSAT isn't like that.

Lastly, no one can actually chance your application without your actual LSAT score.

blackcat13733

Thanks lazykid! Good to know. Not necessarily asking about "chancing" my admissions, was mostly wondering how the early graduation and outside experience would play into things. GPA went up to a 3.6 after last semester, which I guess is a good thing all things considered haha! I'm currently in the process of preparing for the LSAT; since we don't start classes again until January 24th, I'm hoping that I'll be able to dedicate a good chunk of time everyday to test prep and be well prepared come February!

As a side note, before doing further research, I initially was using the Boston College Law Locator as my guide for admissions "chancing". How accurate do you all find this to be?

Boston College Law Locator Matches - Boston College

bluebayou

...is impossible. No LS is gonna publicly state that early graduates are at a disadvantage. (It would be non-PC.)


Anecdotes and opinions is all you will be able to receive in response to your queries since there is no "concrete data" on your questions. Moreover, you asked 'how [your] application looked?' What do you expect other than opinions?

CC is an open forum, and anyone can post anything relevant or not. There are no rules that give you 'ownership' of a thread with authority to dictate what gets posted. See the Terms of Service.

btw: there is plenty of concrete data showing that late appliers are not very successful -- which is Jonri's point.

blackcat13733

Hi again bluebayou:

Confused as to why you didn't answer the question I asked you in my previous post about your son's experience? I'm really curious to see if he participated in the same program as I am! If not, we may have more to chat about

You are absolutely correct though, this is an open space for open discussion, and I have no ability to restrict what kinds of postings occur in this thread. Hence why I politely REQUESTED, rather than DEMANDED, that posts be kept both cordial and on topic. There's no need to rabble rouse amongst ourselves, we all have better things to do on the other side of the keyboard!

On that note, I would really appreciate it if you would refrain from contributing further posts that have nothing to do with the thread and just waste time with petty arguments. I'm not here to argue, but rather to collect information and perhaps have some friendly, non confrontational conversation along the way.

Happy posting! Would love to pick your brain about your son's experience with the State Department if he did indeed participate in the same internship program as I am about to!

sybbie719

I would suggest that you go straight to the source:

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Relea...formation.aspx