JonLaw

No, I meant the T14.

I think you're still pretty ok with Harvard/Yale/Stanford, although zoosermom might see things differently.

Maybe top third of the T14 will still get you in, but not the "here's my degree, yes that lunch was wonderful, now give me the six figure job" of the late 1990's where you had to simply have a T14 degree and a pulse.

I got two raises between my summer associate job and my start date.

anniezz

I've done lots of hiring during my career. The people of my generation who are doing the hiring, at least in the areas where I work, do not use the term, or look at the "T14" as the holy grail. We have law schools that we know and respect, and others from which we don't value a degree as much. Whatever USNWR says makes not a bit of difference.

zoosermom

Most fims recruit at specific schools, some are pretty universal and some are more specific to a particular firm. USNWR is not even on the radar.
I think Jonlaw is pretty accurate, although this year has been absolutely brutal.

eastcoascrazy

Brownug, I am not a lawyer, don't work in HR, and have no horse in this race. I'm chiming in here to give a tiny voice to looking at other possibilities in employment as a lawyer. I've posted this before, and I get blasted every time by large firm lawyers, but I offer it as something to think about:

I know a lot of happily employed lawyers who own their own tiny firms, or work with one or two partners doing family law or defense law. They handle the work-a-day law that most of us need from time to time: divorce, underage drinking citations, wills, contracts, etc. They have a nice variety in their lives, seem happy, have full family lives, coach little league, and are very involved in their communities.

As an example, my neice, who was raised in one of the rectangular midwestern states, stayed there for undergrad and law school. She disliked the big law internship she did, and took a job as the third lawyer in a two person firm in a small town in her home state. One of the partners wanted to cut down and plans to retire soon. They handle a little bit of everything. She makes a good, but not spectacular living, with an excellent balance in her life. She graduated from law school in 2009, and was employed immediately. But it is small town life, and not what is written about on these forums.

I live in the hyperactive DC area, but even here I know plenty of lawyers who have gone that route. They gain a reputation in the county for excellent work, and have as much work as they want.

There is life beyond working in a big firm, and there is more to life than billable hours.

eastcoascrazy

I also know a fair number of lawyers who have/had employment issues.

A law degree does not make up for character flaws, unacknowledged mental health issues, weird behavior, self control issues, anger issues, personal hygene issues, or......( Fill in the blank with any of the many reasons people don't get hired for other jobs.)

I know lawyers who stayed home with their children for 10 years, decided to go back to practice, and had a nice job within a couple of months. They are smart, engaging, trustworthy people who would be an asset anywhere.

I know other lawyers who are their own worse enemy in any job hunt, and who I personally wouldn't trust with my coffee order as a barista, let alone with my legal issues as a lawyer. They have or have had issues with employment. They would blame it on the rotten employment outlook for lawyers, but anyone else could spend an hour with them and have a pretty good idea of the reasons behind their employment problems.

crankyoldman

I disagree with eastcoast, although I'm not a "large firm lawyer"; I also don't think disagreeing with someone qualifies as having "blasted" them. That said, my experience of 30 years as a lawyer is that she's giving bad advice.
There are a ton a law school graduates every year-approximately 44, 000 new JDs annually. Most do not attend Ivy League/T14/Tier 1 law schools(I didn't). While some of these individuals-very, very few-end up at "big" firms, most do not. Most of those who go to the lower-level schools usually have one of two choices-do something other than practice law, or set up a small law shop-either alone or with one or two others.
I am not familiar with the locations in small town America-which is also loaded with lawyers, by the way-where one gets a job "immediately". Even Mayberry USA jobs are tough to get as a lawyer-and that includes with small town government.
Here's my example: years ago, practiced in a converted townhouse with 6-that's right, 6-other attorneys; for a variety of reasons, we were solo practitioners. Everyone was competent, had practiced for several years(all were in their late 30s, out of law school up to 10 years, several were former DAs or PDs)-and we were all scrambling. Of the bunch, one did very well and made(and still makes) a good living doing PI; I went to govt work-the rest are out of the business.
My point is that jobs are every bit as tough to find in small town America; that's my fundamental disagreement with anyone who claims differently. Here's the state of the legal profession: go to the legal jobs listed on c....list-look at the posting for document review attorneys-these jobs pay $20-25/hr, no benefits; all get filled by lawyers looking for work. There was a job there last week which paid $30k/annually. Our govt office routinely requires 5 years experience for a job that pays 53k-and we get a ton of applicants.
It's tough all over; traveling to small town America will not guarantee you a job as a lawyer, and setting up your own job doesn't spell success-or even making enough money to pay the bills(for example, the real eye-opener is the malpractice, er "errors and omissions" renewal premium; the first year is cheap, and every year after it increases dramatically. By year three, unless business has taken off, most lawyers I knew had dropped it. Real, real risky).
Between debt and poor prospects, think long and hard before attending law school.

zoosermom

I told Brownug privately that this can be the path to a very good life, provided one doesn't have six figures in debt strapped to his back. The cost of starting up a law practice and keeping it going during slow times can be pretty high and is almost impossible if the lawyer has so much debt.

I sincerely believe, and it breaks my heart to say it because I make my living by way of law practices, that the only people who should go to law school are people who are independently wealthy, people who have a guarantee of employment on graduation, and black or hispanic students who have great undergrad records and are admitted to top 20 law schools.

At this time, anyone who goes to law school by taking out mostly loans and would need a high-paying job on graduation to pay them back is absolutely out of his or her mind.

altstarr

Top of class trumps bottom of class ....

Real life example .... two guys in my firm went on to law school...

Smarter better student to into USC was only in the middle of the class ... He had moderately prestigious internships and graduated into a tough hiring environment and didn't get a real lawyer type job for 2 years.

Other guy socially adept guy, but weaker academic student was rejected by USC and went to Pepperdine Law School. He finished #2 in the Class first year, snagged a great internship and got 1/2 tuition 2nd year. On the basis of the academic record and previous internship, he got 2 prestigous internships after year 2 of law school. In the fall of year 3, he received 3 offers from prestigious firms. They basically looked at this Year 1, year 2 academics and internships. Two of the offers were from his Year 2 internships. If he didn't finish so high in year 1, he never would have gotten the Year 1 prestigious internship which set him on the path to hiring success.

charlieschm

I would think class rank would only matter for your first job. After that, graduating from a prestigious law school would be much more important.

Old joke - what do they call the lowest graduate of the worst med school? Doctor.

cartera45

That is not the case. I work in placing attorneys in lateral positions and I am always asked for transcripts for associate positions, no matter how senior. Grades do not lose their importance and many are not chosen for interviews based on their grades even though they are at top firms and from top law schools. Granted, I work mainly in "big law" and spinoffs from "big law."

cbreeze

Grades are important for seeking quality internship placements. With poor grades, you won't be able to land your 1st or 2nd choice specialty and high quality training programs.
Doctors can still get jobs, but that's another topic.

brownug

There may be instances where grades don't matter for jobs after law school (e.g. if you're Johnnie Cochrane), but it seems like from most of what I'm reading that more often than not they DO matter at least somewhat to maybe a whole lot.

I did have another question guys. I couldn't RESIST, lol, and am back (at least for the moment...still have time before school starts).

So, we talked about how lateral moves are tough for lawyers if they don't make partner. I'm wondering where these "failed" partner prospects go? Do they just start all over again at another firm of equal rep.? Or, do they have to get like a "bad" law job?

Secondly, I've started doing my research this week on the law job market. WOW...you guys weren't kidding!!! There are articgles saying it's been the worst in decades. 2011 was like a record year in a lot of areas...this year (though not over) is equally as bad so far.

So here's a question. If you graduate from law school and don't immediately within the first year get a job as a lawyer and take on some non-law job - be it working at Starbucks serving coffee, working in business, doing sales, etc., then what are the chances of GOING BACK into law? Are you blackballed for having done something else?

I was reading that the ENTERING 2011-2012 class had tough times getting summer associate positions, internships, etc. that often serve as the basis for grooming young lawyers and giving them the credentials for post-graduate employment. ...Without these positions, someone said that they'll be even less qualified for ones after year 2.....and that causes a domino effect onto year three post-grad. ....If many grads then don't get a job in law......and do something else to make ends meet for X years, can they go back into law? Is it really tough, if so? That seems to be a real problem from what I'm reading and hearing about.

Thanks again everyone!

amarkov

Some of them manage to make a lateral move, and some manage to get in as an entry-level associate elsewhere. Some also go in-house with one of their firm's clients or whatever. There are some people who do end up having to take contract work in someone's basement; it's not unheard of, but not making partner doesn't mean you're automatically screwed.

If you don't have a legal job within a year, yeah, you're in a lot of trouble. Your options for practicing law at that point are basically getting extremely lucky networking or going solo; nobody has any reason to hire you, when 45% of the next class in the pipe also can't get a legal job. The worst part is that you almost never hear these people's stories, because the kind of people who go to law school are not the kind of people who like to say "yeah I'm making minimum wage, and I haven't made even part of a loan payment in months".

brownug

amarkov - Let's revisit that situation of not having a lawyer job within a year of law school graduation. It makes sense that most people would likely not want to hire you, but do the odds increase if you're at a T14 school? Would, for example, an NYU...Virginia...or UPenn grad still be OK? Would those types of students have, say, and extra four or five months?

Secondly, and on an unrelated note, what are these various distinctions of lawyer names and positions? I know that a partner is at the highest level of a firm (with part ownership). But what is the difference between and definition of:

Attorney
Associate Attorney
Staff Attorney

...names like those that are not "partner" ?

zoosermom

Most go to governmental, non-profit or corporate jobs. If the person was a good lawyer who didn't make partner because he/she didn't have a book of business, very often he or she will end up working for a client of the firm. Likely he/she will have done legal work for that client and has been well-regarded and will move on to doing the same work from the client end. This is why we all say that the legal community in some areas is very incestuous. There are never more than two degrees of separation from most lawyers, staff, judges, clients, etc.

One can not go back to being an entry level associate at another firm. One can go to a smaller or newer firm and be a senior associate, one can be counsel, and one can even become a partner at a smaller firm or start your own, but one can never start over on the partnership track.

Associate: Employee of a firm, generally the person who earns the firm its largest share of fees. It's a straight-up employee position.

Partner: The guy who owns the firm, brings in the clients, takes the risks, and takes home the most money when there is money to be taken home. This is the guy who "builds that."

Counsel: Sometimes a retired partner who still works, sometimes someone in between associate and partner. Too good to let go, but not quite ready to be elevated to the partnership. (Yes, that is the term)

Staff attorney: Employee who is not on the partnership track, will never be promoted, and likely can stay put at a fairly low salary and level of prestige and responsibility. Not an up or out position.

Temp attorney: Exactly what it sounds like.

If you don't get a lawyer job out of law school, you probably aren't ever going to get one unless something completely out of the ordinary happens. But you will have to pay back your debt. Which is why there are so many temp attorneys working in basements for no benefits and getting more bitter by the day as they watch their futures float away.