cellardweller

I have never bought the T-14 or bust argument. If you want to work for BigLaw maybe otherwise it is just plain rubbish! You have made the same unsupported arguments over and over again! Are you even a practicing attorney? If so what field?

I just came back from a licensing attorney conference. I don't think I met any T-14 attorneys. Most were from state schools. I am pretty sure all of them make a decent income. I interact daily with the Microsoft Legal and Corporate Affairs Department. Microsoft employs over 1,000 attorneys, and they come from every single imaginable law school. In most fields, your legal experience is what matters not what school you went to. Open your horizons!

amarkov

45% of recent law school graduates don't get legal experience, because nobody hires them into a legal job. I mean, you're completely right that legal experience is what matters further into your career, but that doesn't matter if assuming you'll have a career is a leap of faith.

cellardweller

That raises a different issue of supply and demand. This affects law school grads at all levels and from all law schools. Until recently, there was an oversupply of computer scientists who could not find jobs on graduation. This is less of an issue today. Even in law, some graduates have no trouble getting experience. In my field of IP, there are plenty of opportunities. Many of the openings are in patent law which requires an undergraduate science or engineering degree, which limits the field of applicants. Tax law is also a busy field, and many applicants have also degrees in accounting or finance.

I recognize that it is hard for a young law school grad without any prior business experience to get a job in the current environment. But is hard for nearly all graduates to find jobs. My Own D wants to go to law school after she graduates as an economics major two year from now. I have suggested she works a few years in industry beforehand, gets some corporate experience working in a legal department before going to law school.

I recently went back to a big reunion of my law school, the University of Connecticut, certainly no top-14 law school but a very decent state flagship. I was part of the class of 2009, which was hit by the equivalent of Katrina on graduation. Many of my classmates told stories of having to struggle to find a job on graduation, sometimes any job. Now, three years later, many if not most are employed in the legal profession. Some work for biglaw in New York, others for smaller local firms, a number work for legal departments in corporations in Stamford and Hartford, quite a few for state and local government. I heard of classmates having exited law altogether, working for banks or other financial institutions even going back to business school. I only met one other solo practitioner at the reunion, a woman who had built a successful bankruptcy practice. Of course, not everybody from my class was present, but it seemed the vast majority had managed to somehow be gainfully employed.

EMM1

No, I'm not a practicing lawyer. I teach law at a state law school that most would consider to be at about the same level as UConn. As such, I am a major beneficiary of the law school scam.

I can tell you that while a few of our recent graduates are doing very well, many are really struggling--huge debts and dismal employment opportunities. By contrast, my impression is that T-14 graduates, by and large do have employment opportunities (although in many cases, not at the level that they hoped).

The bottom line is that anyone who suggests that law school in general is a good investment is doing a major disservice to potential applicants, unless the potential applicant is really hooked in or has something else special going for him.

With that, I'm done. Believe what you want cellardweller. I wish you continued good fortune.

cellardweller

Maybe you should find another line of work if you are such a beneficiary of what you call a scam.

Again, I don't think any of my classmates felt that law school was a scam. Some have had a tough time finding jobs, but not worse than their classmates in college who pursued other career paths, especially those with liberal arts degrees. Most feel they have gone through the worst and have at least jump-started their legal careers.

What is misleading is strictly focusing on careers with big law firms which employ a small minority of lawyers. That business model is increasingly failing anyway. I feel confident enough about the long term employment opportunities for lawyers in a number of fields to support my own D's decision to pursue a legal career. She is not focused on biglaw and is much more interested in in-house corporate work. She has already a couple of offers for internships next summer. I am not worried for her!

crankyoldman

First, congratulations to your daughter. And I'm not a "Big Law" cheerleader, either, but I have to disagree with you: the market for most lawyers is terrible. The worst is not over: check even the most inflated law school stats for new grads with jobs requiring a JD; 70% may sound good(and that's high) but it indicates that 30% of your fellow grads couldn't find law work. You practice in a very small specialty field, one which fewer than 10% of most grads would qualify for. I've been doing this 30 years, am not a T-14 grad, so I'm not looking at the 150K year to start jobs; I'm talking about the entry level DA or PD jobs: they just aren't there. When I went to State U back in the 80s, it was tough to find work, but tuition was so low that I was able to pay the very low tuition by working through law school. Today, even at a state law school, that's just not possible-and taking on 100k in debt with fair job prospects is not a good idea. If you can handle the debt, go for it. But remember you'll be competing with those other 44, 000 newly minted JDs when you start looking for work.

Neonzeus

I don't believe that cellardwellar has kept up with the crash in the legal market. I strongly suggest that any applicant talk to 3Ls at any law school they are considering attending. Ask what jobs are posted on the school's job board, if any, and how they feel about their job prospects. (The 1Ls and 2Ls will have a different perspective, obviously. They're still in the la-la-land of false optimism to justify their decision to attend law school and their tuition payments.) The 3Ls are the ones forced to deal with the likelihood of unemployment.

Look at Monster or the state bar's job boards to see what jobs are available for new lawyers, or other entry level careers for J.D.s. If you know a lawyer socially or have lawyers in the family, ask how many young lawyers he or she has actually hired or are in the process of hiring.

My kid graduated from a well-ranked state law school and took the bar this July. A $45,000 legal job would look great to him right now. He only knows two classmates who have found jobs so far (the editor of the Law Review, and a classmate whose father is the CEO of a major corporation). One of his friends who graduated last year just found a legal job with legal aid, and is thrilled to finally be using his degree.

I wish I could agree with cellardwellar instead of crankyoldman, but I think crankyoldman's warnings are very valid. However, I've learned that it's impossible to convince hopeful students (including my own family members) that law school has become a horrible investment. They just don't listen. My approach now is to tell them to do their own research. If they won't listen, maybe they'll believe their own research.

I do agree with the point that the job market is terrible for almost any graduate looking for that first entry level position, and isn't limited to the legal field. Which candidate is better for jobs? Aaaaaargh. We have only a few months left to figure it out.

cellardweller

I actually graduated in 2009, probably the worst year of the crash. I had barely started my last year of law school that Lehman went belly up. The stock market dropped 2,400 points in two weeks in late September.

According to Law Schucks, Life in and after BigLaw:

Campus interviewing which mostly occurs in the fall was cancelled by a large number of firms.

goldenboy8784

cellardweller, your story just doesn't add up. You went to MIT for undergraduate work but somehow only ended up at UConn Law? You graduated law school in 2009 but you have a daugher that's already in college? Did you graduate law school at the age of 50 or something? It doesn't make logical sense.

sybbie719

Why would it not make sense. People change careers all of the time (I left corporate life and career changed while daughter was in college). I have firends who were SAHMs and went back to school to become RNs, once their kids got to high school in order to pay for college. One of my good friends was a partner in big law, left when her oldest started high school, just returned as a partner in another firm, now that her youngest is a senior in high school (oldest is a senior in college).

my next door neighbor was an engineer at a our local utility company. Went to Fordham law part time (degree takes 4 years) on company dime and now is an IP lawyer at utility company.

Cellardweller as posted also practices in a niche market (IP) related to undergrad education. Perhaps s/he decided to go to law school in order to return to the work place and do a job that provided more flexibility since s/he does have a child. Since UConn has a part time program, it would make absolute sense to attend school locally since one is balancing school, work and a home life.

Neonzeus

I agree that 2009 was horrible, but my point was that the depressed market has continued with no change in sight. Being the worst up to 2009 doesn't mean that it was also worst compared to 20010-2012. This is a little bit like having a philosophical discussion about whether it's better to die quickly from cancer or slowly from Alzheimers. It's still bad.

The going-to-law-school books that my kid looked at when entering law school in 2009 listed employment stats for 9-months after graduation for many schools as being in the 85+ percentiles. Those stats were presumably based on 2008 grads. As the 2009 grads struggled to find employment and the recession continued, the statistics were sharply criticized. Villanova's scandal (falsifying information to get a higher rating from US News), the unsuccessful student suits for misrepresentation by law schools, and countless news stories about the shrinking legal market have encouraged new rating criteria and greater transparency in the rating process. Instead of claiming employment stats based on any job at all, even waitressing, temporary doc review or working in the law school admissions office, most law schools now ask whether the student's employment requires a J.D.

Theoretically, there could be a huge turnaround in the future. Perhaps in another three years the job market will be signficantly better. Of course, there will also be a huge backlog of graduates by then too.

On another front, when my kid entered law school there was a lot of attention on health law certificates in the expectation that there would be a sharp increase in jobs in health law as a result of changes in health law and Medicare/Medicaid. Those jobs never materialized. Now I'm reading articles about new certificates in the areas of energy and tax law. In my cynical opinion, the only area that really shows signs of possible growth is in electronic IP and licensing, both domestically and cross-border. Government contracting work also appears to be stable, although it isn't an entry level practice.

Anyway, I suggest that prospective students ask lots of questions and don't rely on just on the statistics in the books about where to go to law school. The books are published at least a year late, and it's definitely worth asking questions about how the schools determine their employment stats.

cartera45

In the lateral attorney market, health care is active. I have clients that have had a heck of time filling health care jobs. Other areas in which I'm having trouble finding associates are real estate and FDA law. Real estate is tough because there are so few associates who received any experience in real estate in the last few years so when firms need experienced attorneys, they are few and far between. Of course, the lateral market is different from entry level. I have the most openings in intellectual property law. The second and third busiest is white collar crime and banking work - those two go hand in hand as you might imagine.

cellardweller

Goldenboy:

Sybbie is right. Why would it not make sense? I started and ran technology businesses for 25 years in San Francisco and then moved back to the East Coast for family reasons in 2001. As the tech businesses was going through a tough stretch and capital was hard to come by, I looked at what else I could do until the market recovered. I had several patents to my name and felt there was an under-served market opportunity in IP assisting emerging tech companies. I was running another business during the day while going to UConn at night. They happened to have one of the first pilot programs allowing law school students to prosecute patents with the USPTO. I was 51 when I graduated and was not even the oldest student: a tax accountant was older than me. Many of the evening program students were professionals in their 30s and 40s.

I don't claim to be the typical law school graduate, far from it! I have been able to leverage my prior business experience into a new career as an IP attorney. On the other hand, I found law to be incredibly flexible and frankly very lucrative. i could never charge for my services at the same rates if i was just a business consultant. I have found law to be a perfect fit for my entrepreneurial background.

I agree with noeonzeus that one should ask a lot of questions before engaging in a law career.

I also think that several guiding principles would help those considering legal careers;

1. Get some work experience before going back to law school. It is pretty much required of business school students and now common for medical school students as well. At UConn after the market tanked and firms pulled back on offers it was the students with prior experience that got job offers first. I don't even think it has to be working for law firm: if your interest is corporate law, try to to get to work for a big company and understand the industry. Who knows, you may even get your employer to pay for you to go back to law school. In any case, you will be way ahead of your future law school classmates when it comes time to interview with law firms and in-house positions.

2. Acquire a special skill Most of law work is highly specialized. There is virtually no overlap between litigation, IP, corporate law and tax law for instance. The only thing in common is that they all require a license to practice law. I am not sold on certificates in law school as they don't often relate to real world practice. If you are interested in tax law, take classes in finance and accounting in college. Offer to work as an extern or intern, even for free to get some experience. If you are interested in IP learn how to do patent searches, patent landscape analyses, write a response to an office action, write a license agreement. With these skills you can hit the ground running after law school and not require as much training.

3. Learn about your target audience and how to sell yourself . Most law school grads could not sell their services to their own grandmother, let alone explain why a firm should hire them. Through all my years in business, i have learned that one of the most important skills you need is the ability to understand your audience and sell sell yourself to that audience. After all, law school students should be familiar with the process. many end up in politics, so there has to be a correlation! It's not very different from moot court, making your case to a jury. When I pitch my services to a potential client, I see it just the same way: a group of people I need to convince. Even one holdout can make me lose. I need to understand their motivations: saying no is always less risky than saying yes.

I am an optimist by nature, so of course I would rather believe the situation will get better. At the same time I am not naive after 30 years in business. I realize it is tough for law school grads right now. But it is a hell of lot tougher for those with just a BA degree. The demographics are also in favor of new grads. The median age of lawyers in the US has progressively become older and is now close to 50. Many firms have mandatory retirement at 65 and a boatload of attorneys are approaching that age, far more than recent graduates. Eventually, even I will be made obsolete so that some young new attorney can take over. If I could only convince my D to take some more science classes!

Crimsonstained7

I'm sorry if this counts as bringing up a dead thread, but I have to post this. My dad always says, "you know what they call the bottom of the harvard med school class?... Doctor" If you graduate from a great law school, but you're not at the top you'll still have great chances at a lot of places. Maybe you don't get hired at the most prestigious law firm in NYU, but you'll still make it fine. Assuming you can find a job in today's economy of course.