dadofsam

To be straight with you, lopsided candidates are viewed as being lopsided. One side does not balance or compensate for the other.

If you have great engineering grades but poor law school grades you're looked at as not being good lawyer material; stick to engineering. If you have great law school grades but poor engineering grades you're usually looked at as being fine as a lawyer but as not understanding the technology. If you want to become successful as a patent attorney you need to be good (not necessarily great) in both. And nowadays entry-level intellectual property spots are highly sought after and very competitive. There are candidates who have done pretty well in both schools.

To add a bit more. At the beginning, both your law school and your engineering grades will be looked at. After you have some experience, that experience will begin to count more than your grades in either school. It's been a long time since anyone asked about any of my grades. They want to see the breadth and depth of my experience. However, a few law firms ask about law school grades well into one's career.

EE_FLUNKY_1998

dadofsam,
as a non-lawyer, I have read newsmedia reports about the increasing amount of legal-work being outsourced to offshore legal-service providers. Right now, it seems mostly limited to the most basic activities, such as "document review" and "E-discovery" work. (I hope that's the right terms -- correct me if I'm wrong!)

And you stated patent-agent work is open to anyone who passes the less difficult patent-BAR. (A state BAR examination can only be taken by a J.D. candidate from an ABA-acredited program, right?) In your opinion, 5-10 years out, do you foresee the outsourcing of substantial legalwork that is currently done by US patent agents/attorneys, to offshore firms?

dadofsam

Sorry to be late responding but have been out of town.

1. Candidates for a state bar exam must have attended a law school that is accredited by that state. There are a number of such schools that are not ABA-accredited. Graduates of such schools usually cannot take a bar exam in another state.

2. With the passage of time more an nore legal work is under consideration for outsourcing including legal research, draft brief writing, draft contracts and, yes, draft patent applications and patent searching. I have not been involved in outsourcing such work so cannot comment on the quality. However, every couple of weeks I receive a nmessage from yet another company in India offering such services.

Difficult to predict the future. Some US attorneys and companies have reported dissatisfaction with outsourced legal work but it's likely that such dissatsfaction will produce an improvement or correction of problems.

geekwannabe

Hi dadofsam,

I came across this site doing a search, and have also tried to search relevant topics that apply to my issue.

Like DA1984's post, I wish to get into patent law and particularly pharmaceuticals. However, I do not have a science degree. In fact, I have a digital animation degree (I actually don't really know how I got accepted into a top tier law school, I consider myself extremely lucky).

Because of my art background, I wouldn't mind doing copyright but I have always had a passion for science. During the middle of my undergrad I wanted to redo undergrad and go into engineering. At the time, however, my mother wouldn't permit me to go through undergrad with an entirely different major. Now that I'm in lawschool, I have more credibility with her and she's more accepting of me venturing into different fields.

I have read the requirements to sit for the patent bar, and I'm interested in doing the 24 credits in biology and 10 in chemistry. I'm currently a 1L, and from career services advice it's actually a good idea to take one year off of law school to fulfill the science credits and then enroll back into law school to finish up to cut down the time gap between after graduation and finding a job.

From this site and from the patent professor here, it looks like I don't have a good chance unless I have a Ph.D in science or have some science or technical background.

Is there still hope in finding a job with a patent bar under your belt but with no science degree? I have yet to find a current law student or law students in the past that have wanted to take this path. I just want to know if there is some good route or advice on how to achieve this goal. Is going back to and getting a degree the only way? What would you recommend for someone in my current situation?

Thanks,
Abby

dadofsam

Dear Abby:

As you realize, in order to take the patent bar, you need to have the minimum scientific education. In addition, in general, and especially in the current economy, in order to be competitive for that first job in a field, i.e. patent law, you generally have to have more than the minimum qualifications. Other applicants for pharmaceutical-related patent positions will have obtained degrees, very often a masters degree or more (not necessarily a Ph. D.). So for my part I can't offer you much encouragement for the route you suggest.

Also, I don't see how you could possibly complete all those courses in only one year.
Most of those courses have labs, which take up quite a bit of time. At least 2 years of concntrated study will be needed, and that time is highly dependent on your being able to get into the courses you want when you want to take them. You might consider taking a course or two next summer to see how you like the sciences.

I also advise you, before venturing very far into this effort, to see if you can get to talk with someone who is a patent attorney with a pharmaceutical company to see whether your plan is realistic. My reaction to your plan, unless that combination would be enough to earn you a bachelor's degree with a science major is that you will have neither enough biology nor chemistry to be impressive to someone in a hiring position.

So look carefully before leaping. And, by the way, you might enjoy copyright law or other art-related law.

InnovativeBoxx

dadofsam,

Excluding current economic conditions, is it typical for patent attorneys to have starting salaries of no less than six figures ($100K)?

While I'm clearly not wanting to be a patent attorney just because of the alleged financial benefits, I am wondering if a newly licensed patent attorney fresh out of law school will make six figures his first year.

I've been told that patent attorneys make an average of $115K-125K per year due to the rigorous bachelor's degree one must have, the demand for patent attorneys, and also the saturation of other law fields.

Thoughts?

dadofsam

Excluding current economic conditions, which are likely to continue for some time ....
Newly graduated patent attorneys who land openings at the bigger firms (IP specialists or IP departments of general practice firms) will be paid six-figure salaries. The exact amounts depend heavily on the firm and the economic conditions. Right now, some of thee firms are still bringing in first-year associates, but fewer than in past years.

Starting salary in a company situation (for those few companies that will take inexperienced patent attorneys) is likely to be from $ 75-80,000, into the low six figures. One's technical degree may have some effect on this.

Starting salaries for new patent examiners will be somewhat less, depending again on the technical degree.

Marlar

dadofsam,

Thanks for all your posts, very informative. I would really appreciate a bit of advice.

I have been considering a career in patent law for a few years now. I am currently a 1st year PhD student at an Ivy League school in MolecBio/Genetics. I am really debating the merits of obtaining a PhD, knowing that I will not be doing my own research as a career. Can you (and/or anyone reading) speak to the value of the PhD in patent law vs. the opportunity cost. I am thinking about stopping my program with a M.S. and heading to law school. However, I don't want this to put me on a path that plateaus at a lower level position I may later regret.

Also, do you think that 1 or 2 years at the USPTO or in a biotech company before law school would significantly aid in my law school admissions and later, my career success?

Thanks!

harvard09

dadofsam,

What percentage of patent lawyers have a PhD degree? I heard it was anywhere from 50-60 percent. Is that true?

dadofsam

I don't know of any figures on Ph.D.s. It also varies widely from one field of technology to another. I would say that many attorneys workibg in biotech have Ph.D.s whereas relatively few mechanical engineers have them, for example.

dadofsam

Marlar: If you want to become a biotech patent attorney, a Master's degree might be enough but a Ph.D. will make you more competitive. I wish it weren't so, but it is. Some companies insist that their patent attorneys have Ph.D. degrees. Their rationale is that their researchers all have Ph.D.s, ergo pagent attorneys with a lesser degree cannot effectively interact with them. I don't agree; I do not have a Ph.D. and have worked effectively with Ph.D. inventors for years; however, in that situation it's not what you or I think but what company management thinks that matters.

In addition, not all Ph.D. holders go into either research or patent law. Some become consultants, work for think tanks, work for the government, etc.

I don't comment about law school admissions but either experience can be a plus in starting a career in patent law.

livindreamzs

i happen to venture upon this very helpful thread and would like to ask a question of my own. I am currently a 1L with a biology B.S. (with econ minor) and I am planning to take the patent bar next year. I was wondering if it is wise for me with just a Bio degree to get into IP law without getting a Masters or a PhD. I went to UCSD for my undergrad so I know that a lot of the bio activity are down in San Diego and that Orange is a hotbed for IP law. I was wondering what everyone's thought is on my approach. Do I absolutely need a more advanced degree? I am hoping to do in house. I would love to get a MBA after law school because of my interest in Business as well, would that be wise?

dadofsam

Livindreamsz: My post just above yours addressed this exact question. If you want to do patent prosecution, then a bachelor's degree in biology will not be very competitive. Many people having degrees in biology and wanting to enter IP law have a Masters or higher; some also have research experience. Much of the patent work that uses those degrees is high-level biotechnology and your education might not be enough in depth to handle that work.

If you want to go into litigation, however, a bachelor's degree might be sufficient.

As far as going for an MBA after law school, I suggest you wait a while and focus on your objectives.

chourobin

I am a graduating Chemical Engineer, and I am thinking about a career in patent law. Would you consider being a patent attorney as a "be your own boss" type of career? I would like a career that provides this type of flexibility and independence from managers and supervisors.

Detail

lol no. It's actually the complete opposite - You'll be a whore to big corporations.