Gatsby

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/med...desc/MSPrivate

Aren't those numbers misleading? For example, how many graduates actually report their starting salary? I believe US NEWS publishes such a stat--is this true? On average, a Santa Clara grad may make nearly as much as a Harvard grad, but how many Santa Clara grads report their salary?

thinkingoutloud

For years, lawyer salary information has been suspect. Not all law students find legal jobs after they graduate. They may have to start law practices, if they pass the bar. Starting any business is difficult and it is especially difficult for lawyers. They don't make much and they usually don't respond to law school surveys asking for salary information. That's fine with the law schools because they want to tell prospective students their graduates received high salaries. The $125,000 salaries cited in your link, typically go to lawyers joining medium to large law firms. Probably not more than 5 to 10 percent of the students at average law schools begin working at large law firms. (It also seems strange that $125,000 would be such a common number among law schools.)

Salary information for attorneys practicing for five, ten or more years is also difficult to rely upon. By this time, many of the attorneys are owners of the firm. They no longer receive a salary. Their compensation is based on billings. They pay the full share of social security taxes (instead of half that employees of corporations, etc. pay). They pay their own benefits such as health care and retirement. They pay overhead such as support staff and taxes. An attorney who has annual billing revenue of $125,000 would be lucky to have the salary equivalent of about half that.

In short, if you want to be a lawyer because of the money, you are going into the wrong business.

Gatsby

Thinkingoutloud, I think you've made some valid points. Correct me if I'm wrong--aren't you talking about, though, prospective lawyers who graduate from mid-level law schools? What about graduates from high-level law schools (let's say the top ten in US NEWS)? I'm sure they experience "some" job instability, but how much less than grads from mid-level (I'm not quite sure what you mean by mid-level) law schools?

taxguy

Gatsby, even lawyers who graduate from top level law schools have a hard time getting jobs unless they are at the top ( say top 20% or so). Based on what I have seen, Thinkingoutloud is correct even regarding graduates from top law schools. Also, don't forget, getting into a top law school is just has difficult if not harder than getting into a top ivy as an undergrad. Don't think that because you are a top high school student, you will get into a top law school

concerneddad

The reason the figures are similar for so many schools is that the starting salary at many of the top law firms tend to be around the same. No law firm wants to lose a top candidate for a few thousand dollars, so they all tend to be very competitive with each other.

Kosuke

"Gatsby, even lawyers who graduate from top level law schools have a hard time getting jobs unless they are at the top ( say top 20% or so)."

that doesnt make sense. so what about mediocre law school grads, do they all end up unemployed? if top law school grads cant find jobs, why would graduates of lower level schools even have a chance?

"In short, if you want to be a lawyer because of the money, you are going into the wrong business."

are you kidding me? and when they say 125,000$ for salary, is that after 5 years? starting? or what?

taxguy

Kosuke, I can assure you that many lawyers do NOT make $125,000. Moreover, when studies were conducted by Bar Associations, lawyers have one of the highest job dissatisfaction rating when compared to that of most other occupations.

All I am saying: if you want to get a good first job that pays well, one needs to be in either the top 10% of their law school or graduate around the top 20% of a top tier law school. Anything else will make it harder to get these top jobs with law firms. This is not to say that legal jobs aren't available to the others. They can work for the government, start up their own practice, get lessor paying jobs with small practitioners etc.

Kosuke

what about this?

http://www.law.stanford.edu/admin/oc...tatistics.html

it says 97% were employed, and 1% was at grad school. and that 99% responded. still 125,000

concerneddad

Since laywers can simply hang out a shingle, unemployment rates are always very low. The Stanford stats appear to be for first year attorneys at law firms. Historically, first year salaries are set by the top New York law firms. From there, the LA & SF firms 9 or offices of the NY firms) usually follow suit. Taxguy is generally correct in his opinion that you have to be in the 10% to 20% of your law school class to grab one of those $125,000 a year starting salaries. But, we all know exceptions to the rule. There will always be a select few who attend lower-tier schools that stand way out from the crowd and garner a position at a top firm.

Roger_Dooley

It seems like what the statistic really means is, "Average Starting Salary for Grads Who Join Law Firms Immediately After Graduation". It's hard to believe that the published stats include some grads who took other jobs or decided to try to start their own office, much less averaging in any unemployed grads.

concerneddad

Exactly right!

sakky

The other confounding factor is that lately (in the last decades or so), many lawyers don't get jobs in law. They get jobs in investment banking or management consulting, where, depending on the economy and on their bonus structure, they can easily make far more than $125,000.

emsibdn

I agree Roger.

Sugee

What is the academic progress beyond JD, in case one wants to stay in academics, teaching and research instead of practice ?

concerneddad

Other than for tax or patent lawyers, there really is not a graduate school for lawyers. To work in academia, you must be an OUTSTANDING student and be invited to teach, or establish a reputation in a filed of law and then search out teaching position. Law school are always hiring adjunct faculty and that can be a stepping-stone to a full time teaching position. If pure research is your interest, again good grades in law school, and a clerking popistion in a judges chambers is the way to go. In some states, like California, the appellate court -- and even the trial courts -- employ research attorney who can have 30 year careers with the court. Hope that helps,
CD