pnelson

Hey guys,

I'm thinking about Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Columbia law school and wondering whether I should work harder, maintain my current work level, or relax a bit. I am currently a sophomore at Harvard college, with a 3.76 GPA. Based on a College Confidential SAT-LSAT conversion, my predicted LSAT rounds to a 174.
Can I stop worrying so much about GPA and take harder (albeit more interesting) classes, and participate in a few more extra-curriculars, so long as I study really hard before the LSAT? Or do I need a higher GPA? How much will an AB from Harvard help me when applying to law schools? Will it be particularly useful in applying to HLS? I've talked to HLS students and my college advisors, but they give somewhat varied answers.

Thanks!

frazzled1

Harvard University Law School | Law School Numbers

A 3.76 GPA was actually just below the 25th percentile of admitted Harvard Law students in 2010. Their 25th-75th percentile GPA range was 3.78-3.96. The 25th-75th LSAT range was 171-176. You'll find many different viewpoints on how much the undergrad major or school matters regarding law school admissions.

PlantBottles

wow nice job just restating useless statistics that don't help at all. the truth is that you need to look at the medians of law schools, not their 25th-75th percentiles. harvard's medians are 173/3.9 so you need to be close or above those to have a decent shot. your major will not help at all but your undergrad institution will give you a small boost since you go to harvard already. SAT to LSAT conversions are useless so you should not rely on that at all. your goal should be to get at least a 3.8 if you want a solid shot since those that get in with a sub 3.8 are people with incredibly high lsat scores.

frazzled1

Sorry to have noted statistics that you consider useless, but perhaps the poster will not share your assessment. The poster's first question specifically asked if he/she could stop worrying so much about a GPA that, while very good, is still below the 25th percentile for admitted students at HLS. Looking at Harvard's median (which you advise us is the more significant statistic) of 3.89, a 3.76 is, of course, even farther off the mark.

Might it be possible to respond without putting down the efforts of other posters?

pnelson

Thanks guys!

I was basically wondering how much of a boost I would get for going to Harvard as an undergrad. Essentially, it looks like the answer is: "not a big enough boost for me to get in with a 3.76, unless I do really well on the LSATs, which I can't predict."
The conclusion, I suppose, is that I should raise my GPA.

pnelson

Not that it necessarily matters, but if anyone is interested...

I went over to the office of career services at Harvard today, and took a look at the college's most recent HLS admissions statistics. For graduates of Harvard College admitted to HLS, the mean GPA was a 3.72 and the mean LSAT was a 172. I also looked at the list of individual applicants so I could try to parse out some more information. Here's some of what I could glean from the data:

Students accepted at HLS and hailing from Harvard College had substantially lower GPAs than the students accepted from other undergraduate institutions (the mean GPA was a 3.72, which is a full 0.2 below the average GPA of all admits) . However, Harvard College graduates accepted to HLS had roughly the same mean LSAT as the accepted pool.

Based on these numbers, it seems HLS does give Harvard undergraduates a GPA boost (of about 0.2 based on the statistics, which is consistent with what I've heard) but demands the same LSAT scores from applicants regardless of their undergraduate institution.

When I looked at the list of individual applicants in terms of acceptances and denials, this became all the more apparent. Harvard undergraduates with GPAs over 3.7 were consistently admitted so long as their LSAT was a 170 or above. However, as soon as their LSAT dropped below a 170, even students with 3.8s were regularly denied. As such, for a Harvard College graduate admission seems to depend significantly on one's LSAT score.

Remember, these are statistics for Harvard graduates only. Just food for thought.

impromptublue

Wow, pnelson, that is extremely helpful. Thanks for going to the trouble of finding these stats-- I didn't even know they were publicly accessible! Do we have stats for Harvard applicants to other law schools too?

PlantBottles

you can't look at averages when it comes to law school admissions. averages are very misleading so you need to look at medians since that is what law school officers look at when deciding who to admit. all it takes is a couple of URM admits to bring down the average drastically. if you apply with a 172/3.72 from harvard, you will be not be getting in i assure you. you should get at least a 174 for them to even consider you since your gpa will be below the median.

pnelson

For improptublue,
You're welcome, and there are indeed stats for Harvard college graduates applying to other law schools! If you go to the OCS office and ask for law school admissions data, they will give you a booklet with everything inside. Good luck and have fun checking it out!

For PlantBottles,
I know, it sounds crazy, right? The notion that a Harvard College graduate with a 3.72 GPA and 172 LSAT could get into Harvard Law while a student from another college with a 3.9 GPA and 172 LSAT might often be denied seems insane. However, I looked at the statistics and that is exactly the case. It is true that averages do not indicate likelihood of admission, because they can be heavily skewed by outliers. However, the study I looked at contains not only averages, but a list of EVERY SINGLE Harvard College graduate that applied to law schools last year.

The study breaks down applications by Law School, so I was able to look at a list of all the Harvard College graduates that applied to Harvard Law School last year. The list gave LSAT scores and GPAs for every applicant. Also, for each applicant it specified whether the student was admitted, admitted and attending, or denied. Thus I was able to see the GPAs and LSATs of all Harvard College graduates accepted to Harvard Law School last year, and the GPAs and LSATs of all Harvard College graduates denied from Harvard Law School last year. This allowed me to see what GPAs/LSATs got Harvard College graduates accepted, and what GPAs/LSATs were not enough for Harvard College graduates. I made my specific conclusions (concerning the GPAs and LSATs necessary for admission last year) based on these lists. I made no false inferences, and there were no tricks.

I will reiterate my conclusions, and add that everything I concluded could be found directly in the data. I am simply restating exactly what the lists show, without any deductions on my part. I do recognize a need to clarify some of my terminology, such as "consistently" and "regularly." I make those clarifications below.

From the General Statistics (Averages)

1. The average GPA of Harvard College graduates accepted at HLS was a 3.72. This is 0.2 points below the average GPA of all students accepted to HLS (a 3.92).

2. The average LSAT of Harvard College graduates accepted at HLS was a 172. This is the same as the average LSAT of all students accepted to HLS.

From the Individual Statistics (Lists)

3. Harvard undergraduates with GPAs over 3.7 were consistently (there were only 3 exceptions) admitted so long as their LSAT was a 170 or above. However, as soon as their LSAT dropped below a 170, even students with 3.8s were regularly (more than 50% of the time) denied.

You seemed to assume that I made this last conclusion (number 3) through averages. However, as you correctly noted, such a conclusion would be impossible if averages were the only data I could work with. However, I actually made this conclusion by studying the LSATs and GPAs of every, single, individual Harvard College graduate that applied to HLS last year. My conclusion was really just a summary of that data, not an inference.

PlantBottles assumed that, "if you apply with a 172/3.72 from harvard, you will be not be getting in i assure you." Fortunately, I am happy to say that this is not the case! I saw many examples of students with those exact statistics being admitted. As I noted in my third conclusion, only 3 students with LSATs above 170 and GPAs above 3.7 were denied. Thus even a student with a 170/3.7 from Harvard stands a fairly good chance of admittance. Only ONE student with statistics like those PlantBottles mentioned (actually a 172/3.8) was denied.

One might ask how this is possible; how are students with stats below the average still consistently admitted? The answer is that admission to HLS is very much a numbers game. The following logic might seem obvious, but trust me, it explains why admission's being a "numbers game" allows students with GPAs/LSATs slightly lower than the average to be accepted consistently.

Imagine students ranked by GPA/LSAT as if GPA and LSAT were a composite statistic. Let's call this composite statistic "GPALSAT." Say 500 students are accepted to HLS. If admission were purely a numbers game, then the applicants with the top 500 GPALSATs would be admitted. Many of the students accepted would have a GPALSAT above the average. However, many others would have a GPALSAT below the average. The college would have to admit students with GPALSATs below the average until the class filled up. This means that all students with GPALSATs above the 100th (bottom) percentile of the top 500 GPALSATs would be admitted because, let us remember, the college is admitting all applicants with the top 500 GPALSATs. If it did not admit someone with a GPALSAT at the 99th percentile, then it would be admitting someone else with a GPALSAT below the 100th percentile, which would contradict the rule that HLS only admit the applicants with the top 500 GPALSATs.

Of course, admission to HLS is not solely a numbers game and even a really good GPA/LSAT will not guarantee admission. However, although it seems counterintuitive, if your GPA/LSAT are slightly below average, all else being equal and assuming admittance is largely a "numbers game," you still have more than a 50% chance of admittance.

Hope this helps clear things up!

sabrina971

Hi!
All your commentaries are really helpful. However when I made some research about getting in HLS, it seems that extracurricular activities seem to be an important factor. Maybe you should look a little more into it.

MiqueMaus

Of course they'll expect you to have some sort of work experience, but the numbers are by far the most important part. As long as you're able to relate what you do to your interest in law during the interview, your WE will be fine. Of course, you'll have to get the interview (which is basically all numbers - or URM status) first. That's the hardest part, especially since JS is a very casual, genuinely nice interviewer.

carajun

Probably shouldn't be so pesstimistic. That could be a person that has what it takes to get in. The chances may not be great, but they are still there. They may be "miniscule" but small is better than nothing. Besdides, someone has to get in!

Virus1

Does a W on your transcript matter?