BigAppleDaddy

So we knew for years that that S had trouble with math. After a terrible HS freshman year, both academically and otherwise, we had him evaluated, and it was worse than we thought. His math LD put his abilities at roughly the sixth grade level (two standard deviations below average.) But his reading and writing tests put those abilities at college level and above, with an raw IQ in the top 2%! That explains a lot about why he did so bad: he was a kid with no academic "middle" stuck in a middle-of-the-pack high school. So nothing there fit him right.

He's going to a different school for the fall, and that should help, although we are not yet sure we will have any accomodations, or what they should be. But anybody have any experience with this strange combination of really smart kids with LDs? I still don't quite know what to make of it and how it might affect his chances for making college, especially with all those bad grades on his record from 9th grade. Advice?

AnonyMom

One of the things we went to our testing psychologist for was an explanation of exactly how our S's LD affected the way he learned, the kinds of things he had to learn to do to be able to achieve at his intellectual level, and the kinds of accommodations he needed at school. In fact, with most school aged children, independent testing reports actually provide lists of the appropriate accommodations with specific explanations of how the child's particular LD calls for the particular accommodation. (If you received testing through your S's school, and the school is not into providing accommodation, the testing psychologist might have been working for the school as much as s/he was working for you. Otherwise, I'm not sure why your S's evaluation didn't address the next step: how to cope.)

I'm also wondering what it means that your son's math abilities are at the 6th grade level. Ususally, when a test report gives you a grade level, it's talking about the child's performance. The distinction is very important because if his ability, or potential, puts him several years behind, that's completely different than if his LD causes him to function at the 6th grade level.

I have a very smart kid with LD's, as do a number of other posters here. Two standard deviations below average on what I'm assuming are a couple of the performance section subtests on an IQ test doesn't phase me. Those subtests may reflect the extent to which the LD (Do you have a specific diagnosis, if you're comfortable sharing it here?)

If your testing psychologist does not seem well equipt to answer your full range of questions, offer helpful suggestions as to the kind of accommodations that are needed, and ready to (a-hem) interface with schools and institutions like the College Board to advocate for your son's receiving the help he needs, you might want to take the test report and your kid to someone who specializes in this sort of thing, who is aware of the full range of accommodations, assistive technologies, new ways for your son to approach problem-solving in math, etc.

I know that when you first see the test report and anything at all is way below average, it is very scary. But a number of us with older, smart, very successful LD students are here to tell you that with strong motivation, appropriate accommodation from a cooperative, LD friendly school, and strong family support, your S can and will succeed.

BigAppleDaddy

AnonyMom Yes, perhaps I am jumping the gun as I just got these results and have yet to chat with the (outside of school) evaluator, so that i can fully understand the welter of Wiscs Wiats Woodstocks and all the rest. But the "broad math" score on one of these tests (woodstock achievement I beleive) was the 2 SD's below, while everything else was 2 SD's above. The subtests were caluculation and math fluency where scores were grade equivalent 6. Seems right to me as he has failed math twice in the past four years.


The major recommendations were a change of school to a college prep school more in line with his interests (which we think we have accomplished), math tutoring (which he refused to go to last year), and perhaps counseling (which I suspect is what he needs the most).

I guess what seems to make this so weird is the gap between the maths and non math stuff seem so totally huge. it is very difficult for him emotionally because he is able to see how big his deficiencies are in only one area, because he is feeling ashamed , because he is thinks chool is not worth it because he will never pass, because all his friends go to the "smart kids" school and he goes to the 'Ghetto' school...you get the point. Sometime I fear that the psychological damage will be greater than the educational damage, though we are starting to get a hand on both.

So it can all work out? That is good to know. I like to stay an optimist. But sometimes its tough and I think the kid will end up sleeping in a box on the sidewalk.

BigAppleDaddy

Also should add that one reason we had the kid tested was that if he did need any spcial accomodations, and i'm thinking use of calclator and maybe extra time, he could get that for his college tests even if he did not get them for school. we are not quite at that point yet but i know i have to lay the groundwork early, as well as shore up his self confidence and help him find whatever else will help him in this area.

AnonyMom

Big--

Just in response to #4, NOOOOOOO! If he doesn't get and use accommodations in school, the College Board and ACT will almost certainly turn you down, and your kid will end up a 250 point gap between verbal and math, not to mention his achievement tests. This will be a big mess for admissions since colleges need to see that the kid is capable of achieving at the same level as the other kids they're accepting. It's the school that applies for the CB accommodations in the first place, and the CB wants to know if you have a plan on file, the accommodations used, how long the plan has been in place, etc.

Want to give a lot more thought to #3 before responding, but one thing your kid should know is that there are almost certainly kids with LD's at smart-kid school who are getting accommodations. There are kids with LD's at top colleges getting accommodations. Go to the website of the LD student support office at virtually any top 30 college (keep going down your list if you find a bad website) and he will see that even at dream schools, there is a whole apparatus set up to level the playing field for smart, academically successful LD kids.

BigAppleDaddy

Thanks for the 411 on SAT thing. As you can see I am new to all of this. The thought of accomodations, IEPs, 504s, sp. ed and all the rest ( I do know they are all different things) makes me uneasy because kids where who get slapped with those labels, especially black kids, often end up in the academic trash heap. I've seen it happen. But if something needs to be done for him of course I am willing to fight for it. We know one with dyslexia and one with ADHD and both are at one of the city's top schools. It's too late for that for S but I want him to at least be able to imagine something like that for himself come college time. I feel that if he will have a much better chance at life, let alone college, if he can envision himself in such a place.

shawbridge

Is your son a rising sophomore? There would still be time to work out the required accommodations with the school. We had all of the testing done years before but my son's HS became responsive partway through freshman year. His numbers were different, but there was over a 3 SD difference between Verbal IQ and Performance IQ due to processing speed issues and severe dyslexia. No problems at all with abstract math. While the school's attempts at remediation were probably not all that effective, they gave him almost all of the requested accommodations (double time or more on all tests, books on tape at times, limited dumb writing assignments in freshman and sophomore years, spaced out exams). He has done very well in school; probably top 5 in a class of 300. And, his brain has been rewiring itself. The processing speed has gone up in at least some clear dimensions. His reading comprehension is superb for about 20 minutes and then he gets fatigued. I negotiated a partial homeschooling plan with the school, which enabled him to go faster in math and to work on writing (as separate from reading). His writing improved substantially. So, I wouldn't necessarily give up hope.

I will say that for all the good politically correct talk about embracing many different kinds of learners, most of his teachers did not, in their heart of hearts, believe that a kid could be extremely bright and have learning disabilities. My son had to prove it every year, which worked an all courses except the English department. His freshman English teacher refused to give the accommodations listed in the IEP and said, "He's my strongest student. If I give him accommodations, what should I do for my weakest student." His sophomore English teacher also violated the IEP (and he was the department chairman) -- he couldn't sacrifice the "integrity" of the course by reducing the number of writing assignments so that my son could focus on doing much more rewriting on a smaller number of pieces despite the fact that this was mandated by the IEP. Thereafter, the assistant superintendent let us construct our own English courses.

Anyway, we've seen great progress in HS. Much more work needs to be done, but I wouldn't write off the possibility of real accommodations and real improvement in HS if you can get a handle on what the issues are. For that, follow anonymom's advice.

emeraldkity4

BigApple-
I feel your pain.
My girls both are very bright, with learning differences. Eight years apart & different kids- different results in school.
Oldest attended private schools- which were set up for " experiential learning" and gave accomodations without calling them such. Many kids- had dyslexia/ADHD and other differences, but at same time very bright.
Small classes, hands on learning etc helped her to excel & she found a college that was rigorous, but where they still gave learning support.

She has computation difficulties- took Calculus and Organic Chemistry as a bio major at Reed College- but has trouble with paper and pencil ( she has some elements of dyslexia despite her reading skill I think)

I would suggest this website
LD OnLine

also look for twicegifted.
It is more common than you think- but there are ways to help support these kids so they can excel, no matter how late you get started.

bessie

Two super smart kids with LD's, both diagnosed late. Get your accommodations early and USE them or you will get turned down for help on the SAT/ACT. Although my son turned out not to need accommodations, his initial application was rejected by Collegeboard before his first (and only) SAT even though he had been on a 504 and medication for two years. (who knows why?) Those "labels" you fear may well be the thing that helps your bright son get accepted into a top college! I sincerely think it helped my younger son to explain discrepancies in his transcript with the LD diagnosis. The fact that he had been on a 504 for 2 1/2 years authenticated his explanation. I agree that most teachers fail to grasp that a bright child can have LD's. Most simply think the kid is lazy. Funny, if a person in a wheelchair was a world champion arm wrestler, no one would say that person could get out of his chair and run a marathon if he really wanted to/applied himself, but people often think a smart kid can overcome learning disabilities just by "trying harder." I also happen to think that the sooner all of us parents stop accepting that these labels are negative, the sooner other's attitudes may change. A diagnosis of a learning disability is simply taking a picture of how an individual's brain learns. We are all different in both appearance and abilities. The label is like an ingredient list on a food item from a store. Not necessarily good or bad, just a description of what is inside.

AnonyMom

BigAppleDad--

Hope you've met with the testing psychologist at this point and have a lot of useful information to help your son.

I've been thinking about your son's predicament a lot, and my feeling is that his old school already labeled him in a way that is much more subversive than a label of LD. When the school noticed a very bright youngster was not succeeding in math, they failed him when they didn't try to figure out what was going wrong. This failure of theirs was couched in erroneous assumptions/labels -- that your son wasn't all that bright; that he wasn't trying hard; that he wasn't motivated; that he didn't care; that he was just another under-achieving drop-out in the making; that he didn't do his homework because of all of the aforementioned reasons (when it probably would have taken him 15 hours to do a single problem set, given that he didn't get it and given the LD); and if negative stereotyping involving race was involved, assumptions even more poisonous to your son than the ones already listed may have been in play.

If the school had picked up on the fact that they had a bright (brilliant -- look at his scores) child who was inexplicably failing math the first time he messed up a math quiz, or the second, or the third, or the 14th, and referred him for testing, he would have a correct LD label, years of perceived competence rather than failure in math, and his self-esteem and sense of himself as an intellectually competent young man would be intact.

I'm not completely clear from what you've told us whether your son has the sort of LD that means that he will need to use a calculator and have math presented to him in a different way from other students in order to fully get it, that his LD goes specifically to comprehension of math concepts and ability to formulate math problems, or if his processing issues mean that, once someone teaches him the math he missed appropriately, he will simply need a lot of extra time to succeed on tests and quizzes.

Either way, your kid is now a couple of years behind his classmates in math, and the notion of getting him caught up in time for school a month from now does not make sense. I wonder if the new school, understanding the extent to which the old school failed your son, and the negative consequences this has had for him, would allow him to take math outside of school, using, for example, one of the excellent online programs (Stanford has one, but it may start with math more advanced than is needed right now. But it would be worthwhile to consult with their math person to find the right program for your son.) supplemented by a tutor who gets it. Otherwise, your S will find himself in a class with much younger kids, or in a very slow, and probably inappropriate math track. It may very well be that once he gets caught up, and if he is given enough time to do his math, he will be able to jump right in with his classmates. Or it may be that he will never like math, do the minimum he needs for college/SAT's, and go on to do wonderful things in a humanities field in which he already excells.

But what I'm suggesting is that it might be good to find a way to pull him out of the kind of lock-step, negative math class experience he's already had, and that he has to have feelings about, and approach math in a new way, with input from a learning specialist who fully understands both the LD and the humiliation your S has already suffered with math in the old school, where no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't do it.

Also, when going for extended time, remember that with the more advanced science he will be taking in high school, there is a lot of calculation and setting up of problems and formulae. Do not even think about restricting extended time to math. Cognitive processing/fluency issues cut across subjects. The verbal tasks on which your son excelled tend not to be timed as are the performance sub-tests. Check out your son's reading speed and see if he runs out of time, or lacks the time to review his work, or seems to go slower than comparably bright students in humanities subjects. Even though he is doing fine in those areas, it may be that extended time would help level the playing field for him.

Please update. We're pulling for your son.

BigAppleDaddy

Thanks AnonyMom

Since S was tested near the end of th school year, our evaluator is away for most of the summer and we won't be seeing him, I understand now, until sometimes mid-August at the earliest. I have forwarded the results off to his new school and we will meet with them before school starts.

"But what I'm suggesting is that it might be good to find a way to pull him out of the kind of lock-step, negative math class experience he's already had, and that he has to have feelings about, and approach math in a new way..." Hey, from your mouth to God's ear.

The new schiool has already seen the evaluation, interviewed S for admission, asked him about his previous experience, so they should be well-versed in who he is by the time we meet. Their classes, for every subject, are small and non-traditional, and not limited to kids in any particular grade, so the being stuck with younger kids thing shouldn't be a problem.

EVen with his negative experiences in math, however, he remains fascinated by science and sometimes thinks of a business career. Go figure. All his processing and working memory skills are, according to tests, in the 'average" or category or higher, for what its worth. But again, I cannot be more specific about how this, or his reading speed, can affect him without some advice from the woman who tested him.

Again, thanks so much for the advice re testing and I will check out the Stanford program and other computer type offerings in the meantime so as to have something to suggest with the people we meet with next month. I will keep you posted.

And yes, I have no hope that he can catch up with the restof his classmates and be grade level in one month, I am just hoping to start the process so that perhaps he doesn't stay years behind them.

AnonyMom

Hi BigAppleDad,

OK, this may be utterly paranoid here, but I wouldn't go into the school meeting until a psycholgist/learning specialist has looked at your raw data and test report and made a clear list of recommended accommodations with concrete support as to why each one is needed! The last thing you want is for the school to craft its own plan and then for a psychologist, who has only the needs of your son and not the convenience or biases of the institution (which exist even in the most committed and LD-friendly school) to come onto the scene afterwards with different suggestions. In my experience, you need to be open, firm, and collaborative with the school, knowing exactly what you want, and with clear data that you are willing to explain to them in detail supporting your every request.

I am already concerned that your testing report doesn't talk about what your son needs (accommodations; approaches to learning; etc.), and that your testing didn't include a follow-up session to benefit both you and your son, particularly with the siginifcance of the findings in terms of fashioning a school program for your son next year.

I want to recommend that you find a top person who is NOT at this moment on vacation asap and get that person your test report, which should include the raw data, followed by a meeting with that person, your son, and your family, so that you can have back-up when you go to the school. What the school agrees to do in this initial session is critical in terms of your son's potential success there. You need to go into that meeting knowing exactly what you want (at least what you want to try first), fully understanding that test report, and knowing which scores support what you're requesting. (Particularly if the school is going to have its psychologist there, you might want to bring yours too. A psychologist who is already familiar with the school would be a big plus, although not necessary.) This is not to say that the person you used didn't do a great job with the actual testing -- but he isn't here when you need him, and he didn't provide you with the information you need to have a fruitful negotiation with the school.

If you need a referral for a highly competent NYC psychologist/learning specialist you can see quickly, please put out the word (Are you listening, TransitionSuccess? Actually, you might want to PM her for NYC referrals.) and a number of parents who have, believe me, been in a position similar to yours before will try to find you some in the next couple of days.

In my experience, the testing psychologist has to also be willing to function as an advocate, not only with the school at the initial meeting, but if issues arise later, and with the Educational Testing Service, and perhaps even with the LD support services at S's college. You want someone in there who is in your son's corner, whom you trust and with whom you can consult on an ongoing basis, right from the start.

The fact that the new school has seen the report, knows your son, and wants to work with your son in a non-traditional way is wonderful. We were in a more traditional school, but it was very LD-friendly, and I can't even tell you what a relief it will be to have the school on your side. But even with all that, you are at the beginning of several years of having to educate yourself to be an excellent, firm advocate for your son and what he needs. And to do that, you need an expert right now who will explain the significance of the test report to you in detail as in applies to what your son needs in school; you need the list of needed accommodations in writing with support for each item; and you need to know what it is you're going to be asking/fighting (in the nicest possible way) for.

Please, please do not go into the school meeting knowing only what you know now. You need someone terrific to decipher the raw data and test report for you, and then to take the vital next step of connecting this data to what your son needs in school, and the step after that of writing this up in such a way that it will be absolutely clear to the school, and the step after that of being willing to talk with the relevant people at the school, and to advocate for your son if the school wants to go with something you think will be less helpful.

Sorry for the militancy, but in my experience, unless you stay proactive and absolutely on top of it with a gifted LD kid, your kid can get steam-rollered.

bessie

I would plan on going into the school meeting WITH the testing psychologist if at all possible (teleconference if he/she cannot be there in person) so the psych can be your advocate. Or, you can hire an LD educational advocate who will advise and guide your child through their high school issues as well as college choices. A little paranoia goes a long way in convincing administrators to do what's right sometimes.

shawbridge

I agree with Anonymom's last post. We have really well-intentioned folks in Special Ed but from what I gather, most people have not been able to get what their kids need from them. We have been able to get almost everything we asked for (except for cooperation from the English department, but the Principal and Assistant Superintendent allowed us to circumvent them). A big part of this comes from figuring out from our neuropsychologist (I pay for him rather than trying to get the school to do so) and from advice on sites like Schwablearning (though that is now defunct). I present my understanding of the data and present the things that I think the school system should/can do in response to the data. They are not usually proactive and thus end up saying yes to my extremely reasonable arguments (also, I pay for lots of stuff the school might be required to pay for like a computer and speech recognition software so that they don't feel like they are always being squeezed for money).

I suspect that if I was not so proactive, they might well have found reasons in the meetings to do much less.

califa

My d has a very similar profile to the OP's son. All along everything has been very easy for her, but she has struggled with math. She has excellent teachers for Algebra I and Geometry, who gave her extra time when she needed it (without any official accommodations), but problems started in Algebra II, and in Functions (the non-honors version of Pre-Calculus), she had to struggle to get C's (A's in everything else, including her AP classes). The school won't do anything unless the kid is actually failing, which IMHO is the wrong approach. By this time she was stressed and depressed over math, so I had her evaluated by a private psychologist.

Turns out that her verbal IQ is 99th percentile, performance 50th (with some subsections well below average). The psychologist recommended extra time and tutoring (which I was already paying for), but the school refused to give her a 504 for math, because her achievement scores for math are above average. The private psychologist diagnosed Nonverbal Learning Disability and explained that she used her verbal skills to compensate for the NVLD. The school psychologist said "that's a gifted profile, not a LD profile" - as if a kid can't be both.

If we had discovered this back in second grade, she would have had accommodations all along. Her 10th grade PSAT's are decent (66 CR and W, but 53 on math), but the gap will only get worse because she won't be taking any more math (the psychologist said a good teacher is essential for her, and I can't ensure that she'll get one).

Question: do colleges ever provide LD services for kids who did not have a 504 in HS? The private psychologist would write a letter about the NVLD diagnosis. It seems that the school is penalizing D for compensating for the LD. I hope colleges will be more understanding. And how do you present a LD on college applications?