etyso

I need help making THE big decision.
I'm into MIT, and I'm thrilled. But I'm hearing from a lot of people that going there can be a very mixed blessing. The people and the classes are great, but, unless one is brilliant, and able to get 'A's,' then one should be prepared to get hammered in terms of grades -- B's and C's being pretty normal, and periodic test failures featuring in most students' experiences. I'm being advised to go to a school where the grading system is more generous, so that I won't be at a disadvantage when in comes to applying to grad. schools, professional schools, and/or jobs.
What's the feeling of current, and past MIT grads? Should I opt for a slightly less rigorous school to protect my future? What sort of options does the average, or slightly below average, non-URM, MIT student have upon graduation? If I go there, should I expect to see my high school peers, who have not done as well as me, but who opt for state universities or second tier schools (sorry -- I don't mean to be insulting), leap-froging over me when it comes to graduating from college?
I'm really conflicted right now. Any info./input will be very much appreciated. Thanks.

hazmat

Who are these folks telling you to choose an easier school? Why did you apply to MIT if you didn't think it was the best?

Sci-Fry

This is actually a topic which my dad raised with my sister, who is finished her IB (International Baccalaureate). He was basically saying that if she does get into the better university out of her choice (she is applying to the UK), she should be prepared for a much more intense and rigorous grading system, let alone the competition. In turn, he said, like you have, that this would affect her in the future when applying for jobs because, for example (and this example is more extreme), getting a first class honours would be close to impossible for. That's obviously a whole different story, but my dad like to use these examples to motivate us.

I think, however, that if you were applying for a job, and someone saw "graduated from college x and went to MIT who attained B grades", and they saw someone else who "graduated from college x (same college as you) and went to a second tier school (sorry to have to use the term again), attaining A grades", I think they'd go for the first person, because I shows that you've been in a much more competitive environment, and have already shown your potential to go to a very prestigious college.

That's just my little bit of input. Dunno if it will help, but hopefully it does. I would personally go for MIT if I had the chance. It's an excellent achievement to get accepted there

By the way, I'm not certain of what I'm saying, and I'm not a past MIT grad, but I think that this is the way that the matter might be looked upon...

CalAlum

Well, MIT is one of the big ponds, so to speak. And let's face it, high-school valedictorians are relatively little fish. So I think you've asked an important question. I'll share how my daughter answered this question for herself, because she was admitted to a range of schools, including MIT, and in the end it came down to a choice between MIT and Yale.

She learned a good deal about both universities during the spring visit. She sat in on math and physics classes at both places, and she talked to students majoring in fields that interested her (physics and EECS). She left Yale convinced that the advanced physics class she'd visited was not much more difficult than one of the introductory physics classes at MIT (apologies to any Yale alumni reading this; I'm only sharing the opinion of a 17-year old!) We talked with her and told her this: "You could choose to go to Yale and major in physics there, and perhaps you'd graduate at the top of your class. Or, you could choose to go to MIT and major in physics there, and perhaps at MIT you'd be only an average student. Think about the choice in those terms."

My daughter chose MIT without any hesitation, because she wanted the rigor and the challenge. She wanted to swim in the big pond. What do you want? Visit MIT and other schools, sit in on classes, and talk with other students. Each person has to come up with his or her own answer to the question.

jessiehl

No matter how many people tell you you shouldn't care, this is a good thing to think about. Going to MIT is indeed a mixed blessing. In the end, I am very glad I did, though a lot of things would have been easier and smoother if I had not.

People like to use the metaphor of doors - winning a big prize or maintaining good grades is said to open doors for you, and screwing up is said to close doors. I'm going to torture...er, extend the door metaphor a bit ridiculously here.

In my opinion, the MIT name opened some doors, but my MIT experience also closed a lot of doors that would have remained open had I gone to an easier school. However, the most important part of the experience was not that it opened or closed doors, but that it taught me how to pick locks, kick down doors, find hidden back doors, and withstand the trauma of having my hand slammed in shutting doors (or get my hand out of the way to begin with). And for someone who can do that, it matters less whether any given door is open or closed when they come to it.

Okay, some less metaphorical comments:

You could just come out and include people who are more than slightly below average in there too. It's a real possibility, and you should be aware of it.

Anyway, it depends on what they've made of it. That sounds like a cop-out, but it's the truth. Grades-wise, I was one of those below-average students. And I was in a major that's stereotyped as unemployable unless you have a PhD. But I have a good, intellectually challenging job that I like, better than that of a lot of my friends who got better grades than I did, and I'm now a part-time grad student as well.

Had I not gone through MIT, I would have had an easier time of it in all sorts of ways, but I would have been setting myself up for unhappiness in the long run because I would never have been forced to address the question "Is this really what I want to do with my life?" (I started out as premed-by-default). I would not have developed the coping/survival skills or the resourcefulness that I have now. I would not have been exposed to several academic disciplines that are now a regular part of my life and job.

It's pretty common for MIT alums (and other former MIT students, like people who failed out) that I know, to come out with a particular sense of toughness and security in themselves and their identity, a feeling that if MIT didn't break them, nothing can.

advancer07

Bloody Hell... if getting into MIT is hard then the workload must be a killer.
Until now i never really imagined there would be dropouts from MIT. Scaryyy!
(and mind you i am not the type of person who gets scared...I watch horror movies coz i find them comical. Exorcist was a BIG joke)

hazmat

MIT Office of the Provost, Institutional Research

CalAlum

At a recent conference I met a federal judge who had graduated in physics from MIT with below-average grades. He didn't have any problem entering law school, and he's had a satisfying career as a judge. I also know a Caltech grad with a similar story, although in that case, the individual actually transferred to Swarthmore after feeling like he was failing out of Caltech. Years later, he tells the story like this: "At Swarthmore, all the teachers were telling these kids, 'You're all brilliant; you're the best of the best.' But at Swarthmore, all I could think about was that I'd left the best of the best back in California." He ended up transferring back and finished up his engineering degree at Caltech. He eventually became a marketing director for Cisco Systems and retired early.

Neither of these individuals realized their teenage dreams of becoming leaders in some scientific field; on the other hand, both of them had great opportunities in their futures, and they were resilient in the fact of disappointment and some setbacks in their undergraduate years at MIT and at Caltech.

MIT has a question on its application that asks the applicant to write about a personal setback or disappointment (I can't recall the exact wording right now). I never thought that was a rhetorical question. I think the Institute is seriously looking for students who are as resilient as the MIT graduate who posted above.

Sci-Fry

I'm currently in the 10th grade, and my aim is to go to MIT, or perhaps another highly ranked US college within the top 5 or 10. If it's a challenging course, I'll be even more delighted if I am still accepted, because it's my drive and my passion to want to go to a top university.

If you've got a passion for a certain course then the challenges to come in university will really just be obstacles for you to thrive upon and ultimately let you reach out for your dream.

My passion for physics is what is fueling my desire for me to go to MIT or the likes. It's an early stage to develop a passion, but maybe I might become interested in a certain field of physics as I go on...

So how is this related to your question? I'd say that if you really want to go to a university for something you really want to do, then go for it. Do you want to go to MIT? If you really want to go there, then I think that "how well you do" in comparison to your friends who go to lower ranked colleges won't be a problem becaus you'll know that you've reached out for your potential, and grasped a rare opportunity that perhaps they couldn't gain. And if you have the fuel to do that and have that mindset, then it'll make you work harder, and you might ultimately rank high in your MIT classes

That's kind of the way I try to look at my own scenario at the moment. I've got some time to go still, so maybe my mindset might change (which will be quite ironic :\) but my aim is set, and if I can reach my goal, then it'll make me a better and stronger person in the long run. Besides, meeting intelligent people and being in an "intellectually advanced" environment might help you in the long run, too.

jessiehl

Don't be naive, it won't actually help you. Like I said, I'm glad I went. But the challenges weren't just nice little exercises to help you thrive. I knew somebody who tried to kill herself in her first semester because of the challenges, somebody who was once a happy prefrosh like you guys, all excited that she had gotten in. I have known several people who ended up in mental hospitals for some period of time. I remember times where I went to the counselors' office and took five minutes to explain what I wanted, because I was crying so hard that I couldn't actually form words. I remember panic attacks, and breaking down in front of professors. One of the reasons that they select for resilience in applicants is that the place can seriously *mess you up* if you don't have it.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go. Again, and I keep restating this because I feel that given my other points it's important to emphasize, I am extremely glad that I went. In spite of everything, it was the right place for me to be, and it *did* make me a better person. But going in blind - to anything - is foolish. You should go in understanding what it is that you're getting yourself into, so that you can be prepared to the extent that such is possible. Maybe you'll be one of those lucky folks, and they do exist, that get through relatively easily, but maybe you won't, and you should *not* expect to be.

Oh yes. Compared to, say, your average state school, the numbers are small, but they certainly exist. There are people who leave voluntarily, and people who fail out, and people who leave when they're about to fail out, and people who break down. Some of all of the above categories come back. Some succeed wildly when they come back, and some end up leaving again. Some end up doing very, very well elsewhere, and some of those credit their MIT experience, difficult as it may have been, with preparing them mentally to do that.

A lot of alums that I've known find that at the point of their graduation, their self-esteem is absolutely shot to hell, but that once they've been in the world for a few months, they feel smart again, and they realize how well MIT has prepared them, and they regain their confidence.

Sci-Fry

Well, actually it will help you IMO because your mindset is half of what drives you to do something. Even if you have a mental/physical break down from the stress, the experience itself might help to thrive, can't it?

I also know a number of people who have committed suicide due to the stress of work, and I understand what the reality of the situation actually is. I'm just trying to retain that mindset so I can get there in the first place. But I see what you mean...

collegealum314

I think the actual work and the grade deflation is only one component of the stress at MIT. Back in the 90's the suicide rate at MIT was at least twice that of Caltech's, and I think their work load and difficulty as well as the competition is similar.

Many people think the campus is ugly and that contributes to people's emotional well-being as well. (Yes, I know some people actually liked the campus.) The fact that other people are unhappy also contributes to one's mood regardless of how easy you think the work is.

Ben Golub

This is a big topic, but you should generally be aware that MIT and Caltech (since it seems to be bundled into this discussion) are not very happy places overall. As collegealum314 says, the student culture matters a lot. There are definitely basins of attraction at both schools where you can find yourself with unsatisfied people who have unhealthy ways of coping with the load. You can also find very happy and healthy groups of people and develop a healthy outlook on adversity and on life, but these things are not guaranteed. Going to another school is much safer.

I would say the only people who definitely should go to MIT and/or Caltech are those who come in about as academically advanced as, say, most MIT sophomores and are also overwhelmingly healthy and mature emotionally. Barring that, one should have excellent, concrete evidence (as CalAlum pointed out) that one can put up with and persevere through stress and great professional disappointment.

Most people fall into neither category, and then it's a crapshoot and you might come out worse than you came in, so know what you are getting into.

collegealum314

^^I agree with Ben. Also, I will add that if english and a liberal arts atmospher in general is important to you, you may get turned off by the vibe at MIT or Caltech. You may already know that at this point, but some people discount this for other considerations.

Also, aside from having the brainpower to handle it, the whole firehose philosophy is a turn-off to some. It felt like being on an assembly line at 100 miles per hour rather than synthesizing material more organically into a coherent whole.

Additionally, some students major in engineering at MIT that would have majored in math or science had they just picked what they enjoyed the most, and this may contribute to some discontent.

westsidewolf1989

the good thing is is that you dont graduate from MIT with honors as there is no such thing. as far as ranking/showing transcript to prospective employers i dont know. but i think if you're admitted to MIT, they believe that you CAN be a successful student there, and having a degree from MIT is an amazing asset not just in engineering, science, or math, but also in business as well