IntlDad

My S, an international student, has been accepted to Princeton, Yale, MIT, Caltech, Duke, Williams and Amherst. He has been given extremely generous financial aid everywhere, with slight variations in EFC and work-study amounts. Aid-wise, given those variations, Y>P>A>M>W>D>C, but we hope that eventually the amount of financial aid will not be a constraint in his final choice.

Now, as much as he is overjoyed by these acceptances, he is also completely confused at the moment, not only with regard to where he wants to go, but also with regard to what he wants to major in. Being an international, he cannot visit any campus, and therefore has to make a decision based on secondhand information and – ultimately – his own instinct.

As far as I understand, this is what he is about:
ACADEMICS: He loves Math and Physics (maybe Math a little more than Physics), likes Chem a lot less, and almost hates Bio. Of course he knows that these prior preferences may change surprisingly and dramatically at any of these schools. His stated preference in the apps was for a Math major, but he is willing to switch to Physics if his interests take that turn. The idea of a double major in Math + Physics is attractive to him, but then it isn’t allowed at Princeton, requires a superhuman effort at Caltech, and, though allowed in the other places, is probably not a particularly good idea.

Love of Math probably warrants a toss-up between Princeton and MIT. Our idea is that each year only about 12-15 people major in Math at P, while many more do so at M. Both programs will swarm with IMO and USAMO champs, while he has only made it to our country’s final pre-IMO camp twice without going through to IMO (he has a shot this year, though). For all his love of Math, we don’t know if he will be good enough to do well in a Math program of Princeton/MIT caliber.

EC: He absolutely loves creative writing, reading and music (plays instrument). Also absolutely loves puzzles and riddles and crosswords. Is fascinated by Princeton’s Creative Writing, Music and Humanities programs. Is equally fascinated by MIT’s mystery hunt, brass rat designing contest, and the fun stuff that comes out from its website and blogs.

PERSONAL: Normal guy with an open mind and a great sense of humor. Loves fun and wisecracking and hanging out with friends. Loves MIT’s welcoming and collaborative spirit and its nerdy, quirky humor. But also knows that Princeton’s “polo-wearing preppiness” is a myth, and that he can be happy there too. In short, confusion all around.

But definitely, up to now, not a piddling, hands-on type. Has no intention to study Engineering. Much more comfortable fancying himself as a theroretical Math/Physics person with research and graduate school in mind.

In short, it all basically boils down to MIT or Princeton, though Caltech, Yale and Duke are not far behind.

This is going to be one of the most important decisions of his life, and you can probably guess the uncertainty surrounding the decision from the many qualifiers (“probably”, etc.) I am using in this post. Those of you in similar dilemmas, and those of you with the wisdom of experience – please could you help him out in this one?

mia305

You really need to inform yourself about Princeton. MIT and P are poles apart.

CalAlum

MIT's graduate physics program is ranked #1 (U.S. News &World Report, based on peer review). Princeton's is further down the list. Princeton is ranked #1 in math, and MIT is ranked #2.

Logistically, it's easy to double major in math and physics at MIT -- not impossible at all. I know a math major at MIT who is having a great time participating in all sorts of contests sponsored by MIT's math department, even though she may never place in the Putnam.

Finally, although no one has brought this up yet in the threads comparing MIT to Princeton, Harvard, or Yale -- those ivy league schools still maintain exclusive dining and supper clubs that operate like closed societies on campus. MIT's community is far more meritocratic, in my opinion.

IntlDad

Thanks a lot CalAlum for your very helpful advice. Do you know approximately what percentage of Math or Physics majors also go on to do a second major in the other discipline? And I was also wondering if not knowing much programming/hacking and not having much lab experience from high school can be a disadvantage at MIT.

True, MIT's culture does convey a buzz of meritocracy, sheer energy, and transparency that makes it really unique.

Any other takes on the M vs. P debate?

CalAlum

^^ MIT's math department might be able to provide you with information about double-major statistics. I can give some information about the "lack of programming" concern. Course 6.01, the introductory course in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science involves students in programming with Python. Four female freshmen in my daughter's suite (including my daughter) are now taking this course, and two of them did not have prior programming experience in high school. Before enrolling, students take a diagnostic test, and MIT offers intensive programming workshops over the IAP period for those who need to acquire more skill. My daughter entered MIT with experience in C, C++, Java, Scheme, and a score of 5 on the AP Computer Science course, but she didn't feel that really gave her much of an advantage. If MIT admitted your son, then he has the ability to quickly pick up what he'll need, and the tools and resources are widely available at the Institute.

CalAlum

One more thing, if your son is really interested in math/physics or any kind of applied science, there should not be much debate over this choice. MIT and Stanford are the big elephants in this room, and Princeton is just hovering in the lobby.

molliebatmit

(This isn't a perfect analysis, because the only codified data that's available is how many students declared each department as a double major, but it doesn't say which department they started off in.)

Last year, 24 seniors had declared a second major in physics, and 29 had declared a second major in math (second major data here). 85 students graduated with physics degrees, while 102 students graduated with math degrees (degree information here). So at least ~30% (and likely more) of the students in each department graduated with a degree in another department.

Your son sounds like someone who would have a great time at MIT, although I can't speak to the Princeton side of the debate.

jessiehl

Math is one of the most common double majors, because it has so few and such flexible requirements. I read a few years ago that about 40% of math majors or double majors. I don't have a cite, though.

IntlDad

Thanks a lot CalAlum, Mollie and Jessie. That was most helpful in clearing up much of the confusion that I was talking about.

whylion

Has he visited? MIT's campus is kind of awful, and Princeton's is prob the most beautiful in the country. Also, it sounds like he's not a pure techie, with his interest in writing. He might be better off in a place where he could have a more balanced exploration of all of his interests, with also a really great (small) math dept.

molliebatmit

If being interested in something other than science and engineering makes someone not a "pure techie", then nobody at MIT is a "pure techie".

EDIT: (Also, I happen to love MIT's campus, although I think campus aesthetics is a bizarre reason to choose a school.)

TheExploiter

Agreed with molliebatmit. Sure MIT's campus isn't as nice as Princeton's, but you're going to school to educate yourself from your peers, not some gothic architecture. There's not much to learn from that (unless, of course, you're an architecture major). I really think it would be best for your son, who is interested in Math/Physics, to go somewhere that places an emphasis on these disciplines. Of course, none of the schools listed would be a bad choice, but I just think that for this specific situation, MIT would be a better choice.

cellardweller

Actually, if you were into architecture, MIT would be a much more interesting place to study.

The ersatz "college gothic" architecture of Princeton or Yale is a pale imitation of the real stuff at Cambridge or Oxford and certainly does not win any awards for creativity or functionality. At least Harvard's colonial style brick building architecture exudes some sense of authenticity.

Many MIT buildings are designed by some of the most innovative architects of our time such as Alvar Aalto, Eero Saarinen, I.M. Pei, Kevin Roche, Steven Holl, Frank Gehry or Charles Correa. My D. who lives in Simmons Hall (the sponge) can't walk down her hallway without seeing some visiting architecture scholar or student. While some people may be confused by the absence of a unifying "Disneyland" theme park feel to the MIT campus, these buildings all have distinct personalities and are generally designed to serve a specific function. MIT, just as it encourages its students, likes to take risks. Some architectural efforts turn out better than others. None are boring.

jessiehl

Heh. I've hung out with a Simmons deskworker while he was on duty. They are *constantly* having to stop architects from sneaking in to give themselves unauthorized tours (I guess they weren't satisfied with the legit, guided ones). In the 90 minutes that I was hanging out with him, this happened three times. He said this wasn't out of the ordinary.

I don't much like the building, but they sure get the interesting stories when it comes to architects lurking around.

Silly Puddy

I'm a student at Princeton, and though I rarely post outside the Princeton forum (after all, it's the university I'm most familiar with), I have to put in a word here, specifically regarding Princeton's strength in physics.

Well, yes, Princeton is further down the list. How far down? Well, right after MIT. The physics rankings referred to go as follows:

1. MIT
Stanford
3. Harvard
CalTech
Princeton
UC Berkeley

Search - Physics - Best Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report

Look, point is, when rankings are so close (and when there are bound to be undergrad v. grad differences), it's stupid to say that College X is better than college Y in this metric. I've said this when people argue that Princeton physics is definitively better than MIT physics, too. I'd bet good money that for each renown professor who tells you that MIT is absolutely, definitely better than Princeton in physics, I'll find you one who says the exact opposite (and I wouldn't be surprised if neither of us found too many professors willing to take so strong a stance).

Anyway, I thought that if we're going to point out that if MIT is almost equivalent to Princeton in math (though again, they're about as close to equals as you'll get), that we should also be honest that the physics rankings look pretty similar. At the very least, we should absolutely not go around saying patently bizarre things like...

Perhaps because I'm a math/science guy, this struck me as not just as wrong, but kind of insulting. Given both its historical contributions in physics, its solid reputation, and its present-day research, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Princeton is "hovering" in any sort of lobby in the physics world. This isn't just true about Princeton. Harvard, CalTech, and perhaps the University of Chicago are heavyweights to be included in any physics list that MIT and Stanford are part of.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you know something I don't. But if you're going to make such statements, at least do us the favor of educating us and citing a source.

For the record, I agree that "MIT and P are poles apart." There are some very legitimate reasons for picking Princeton over MIT, just as there are for picking MIT over Princeton (and frankly, none of us are in a position to tell you which is right for you). But differences in academic strength - especially in departments like physics and math - are not among such reasons.

P.S. A pre-frosh interested in studying physics at Princeton or U. Chicago noted his experience with the physics department at Princeton, including a chat with the department head at Princeton. Here's the link to the thread:

Princeton vs the University of Chicago