dsultemeier

Thanks for this discussion. My D is a hs jr and interested in MIT. I wanted to note that my D attends an all-girls private competitive high school. The percentages shown above in the chart for majors corresponds pretty well to the interests of the girls in her high school. Many girls are interested in bio, many also in chemistry and quite a few mention biomedical as an interest. Art is also very popular. My D is more interested in math and physics but she has had a really hard time convincing/recruiting the other girls to participate in math contests or physics activities. My observation is that the girls' interests (life sciences vs. math/physics) are being formed long before they get to college. Anyway, we visited MIT in March and my D really enjoyed it. She met up with some kids she knew from math camp and even ate dinner at a frat house. We took a lengthy tour of the EE/CS dept and my recollection is that the administrator of that program said that girls made up 20 to 25% of the students in EE/CS which seems lower than what is in the chart above. During our visit I didn't hear any comments about boys or girls (either good or bad). Everyone seemed to be getting the same treatment.

Also, I have noticed a lot of bitter comments on these discussion boards from boys who were rejected. However, I think they would probably find another group to blame for their rejection if the enrollment of girls hadn't increased.

jessiehl

The admin could have been going on out-of-date info.

20-25% is right for CS (6-3), but very wrong for EE (6-1), where it is much higher, and EECS (6-2) is in the middle.

It was college that got me interested in math/phys sci/eng, really. I went from neurobio/premed -> systems, computational & mathematical neuro and biophysics -> comp sci, applied math, and neural computing, over the course of my undergrad career.

My observation is that girls who are good at math and science tend to be encouraged more to go into the life sciences, both for their own sake and because being a physician (which is frequently where they are steered) is lucrative, useful to society, and using their talents. There are many exceptions, of course, but it's been the experience of myself and many people I know.

dsultemeier

Thanks for the information jessiehl. I have to admit that most of the parents and high students (myself included) on this particular tour of the EE/CS department were pretty clueless and I don't think they made a distinction between 6-3, 6-1 and 6-2. At the end of the 2-hour tour and talk one of the high school kids finally asked what EE stood for. My D complimented me on my knowledge of the lingo but all I really knew were the basic abbreviations like EE, ME, ChemE, etc.

I agree with you on the girls and life sciences/math. I was interpreting an earlier poster to say that girls were choosing easier majors. I don't think that is the case at all. They are just encouraged as you say to life sciences and premed.

This is rather off-topic but I am wondering if you have suggestions for my D's course of study. She really likes math, physics and computers. However she is more theoretical and not really inclined to build things or take things apart. She doesn't really like chemistry and biology too much although she can go do ok in those if needed. She feels that she should declare an engineering major on her college applications rather than just math or CS since it's hard to get into engineering later. What do you think she should do at this point? Thanks.

smoda61

The chart, I typed above, used data from two documents:

MIT
Number of Women Students by Course and Year
Fall Term 2007-2008

MIT
Number of Students by Course and Year
Fall Term 2007-2008

jessiehl

Does she want to be an engineer, or does she want to be a scientist? If she's more theoretical, she may want to be the latter (though most theoretical people at MIT become more hands-on over time and vice versa - I did).

If she likes math, physics, and computers, she may want to consider 18C (math with theoretical computer science), 8 (physics, which requires a year of experimental physics lab but the rest is theoretical), 12 (earth, atmospheric, and planetary science, which has a lot of physics in it) or 6-3 (computer science & engineering). In 6-3, she would have to do some EE, including hands-on labs, but it would be mostly CS. Though, the engineering majors at MIT are more theoretical than they are most places, so she might enjoy some of them. I would say, given that she doesn't want to build things or take them apart, that she should stay away from 2.

molliebatmit

When I quote the higher female graduation rate and GPA, I'm never trying to say that females are more qualified than males at MIT -- just that we can be pretty sure that females aren't less qualified. I think the error bars on "real talent" (if we could measure that) are sufficiently large that the two populations aren't distinct at MIT.

Also, the buttons on most of the lab coats button the guy way.

For the record, this doesn't matter for MIT -- the major someone writes on the application doesn't lock him or her into anything, and it's not easier to get in when writing one major vs. another. (It does, of course, matter for other schools, and it's a reasonable thing to ponder -- just wanted to make sure you were aware that it doesn't matter for MIT specifically.)

differential

I might be clueless here but... how would a girl's lab coat button differently? What is a guy's button! Have I missed something important my whole life or something?!?

ducktape

Though neither sex tends to figure this out until they mistakenly put on a sibling's shirt, men and women's shirts have buttons on opposite sides of the shirt. It does make it really easy to tell when you're about to put on a brother's shirt, though.

ask-paul

...I am suddenly enlightened. I knew about the difference between guys' and girls' buttons (I do have three sisters, after all) but I never until know realized it would give women a moment's pause when putting on lab coats.

Heh.

molliebatmit

Ahh, the hegemony of the patriarchy. (Hee.)

To tell the truth, I wear lab coats so much more frequently than button-down shirts that I find it difficult to button my shirts now. But it was weird at first.

LauraN

Don't even get me started on the idiocy of fashion.

There is utterly no good reason that people with one set of sexual organs should have buttons on one half of their shirt, while people with a different set of sexual organs should have the buttons on the opposite side. My logical mind is offended by such things.

Sorry, couldn't resist. =)

collegealum314

^^Ah, but there is. If you're a guy, you handle the button with your right hand and slip into the slot on the left side of the shirt. If you are buttoning up your girlfriend/spouse, the difference in button pattern would allow you to also handle her buttons with your right hand as usual because her shirt is a mirror image of yours.

Conclusion? Chirality pervades all things...

LauraN

And all women are left-handed, can't dress themselves, and homosexuals don't count.

Sorry for taking this thread further down this path of irrelevance. =(

jessiehl

*blink* I have never noticed this, and I wear my stepdad's old button-down shirts pretty often, and also borrow my boyfriend's button-down shirts sometimes.

I guess the "women's" shirts that I wear are never button-down. Though I have certainly worn lab coats. But I'm not sure if the lab coats are men's or women's. I didn't know that lab coats were gendered.

This shows you how much I know/care about fashion, particularly gendered fashion.

smoda61

I make you all further crazy. It is the same situation with zippers.

I have known about these differences but I guess I don't pay attention to what I am doing. I just button it or zip it without noticing if them item I am using is "male" or "female"