CalAlum

All the best to the students deciding where to matriculate. For many, it's an easy decision. Despite the fact that I like both Stanford and MIT, I encouraged my daughter to enroll in her first choice school: MIT. She's been very, very happy there, despite -- or perhaps becaue of -- the IHTFP/IHTFP phenomenon that has been explained on this thread.

collegealum314

@Calalum:

I have taken significant number of undergrad courses at another prestigious university (though not Stanford,) and there was really no comparison in difficulty or the sheer volume of work. I also took a few technical courses at Harvard, and I have to say the same thing.

There is a reason why they use the firehose analogy for MIT and Caltech, and there is a reason why IHTFP exists for MIT but not Stanford. It's because it is harder. Also, some of the grad students from good private universities who TA'd my classes expressed some shock at the volume and rigor of homework given.

I also knew a lot of people who went to Stanford from my high school. They were laid back compared to the MIT people. And they were less academically intense.

I don't think programming ability is really a function of college anyway--it is generally largely self-taught.

Aren't you a humanities professor? How does that tell you anything about the level of rigor in the technical classes? I don't see how you could, say, look at the coursework in the chem E department and be able to comment on in it.

CalAlum

^^ Do you seriously think I'm foolish enough to get into a debate -- on an MIT message board -- about whether MIT is more of a firehose than Stanford? Hey, at MIT the firehose analogy is part of a cherished culture!! I'll just say this, though: as a humanities professor, I've enountered engineering students at Stanford who are so sleep deprived they can barely walk. And this was the point of my initial response to the parent who wanted some comparison of Stanford vs. MIT -- that although many people characterize Stanford as much more laid back and low key, a closer inspection often reveals that isn't the case, especially among the science and engineering majors.

collegealum314

"I'll just say this, though: as a humanities professor, I've enountered engineering students at Stanford who are so sleep deprived they can barely walk. "

Are you sure they weren't just stoned?

mia305

MIT is predominantly a science and engineering school, whereas IMO Stanford is predominantly liberal arts and science with an engineering program (about 2/3 - 1/3 ?). Satisfying Stanford's ihum and other non-engineering graduation requirements while doing the engineering prereqs, make it a bit of a forced march to complete an engineering degree in 4 years. You dont really declare the engineering major for 2 years. Also, anecdotally, I have heard comments to the effect that there is a big difference in grading policies and workloads between pre-engineering/engineering courses and others. Part of the class would appear to drink from the firehose, while others may be sipping from a garden hose.

lizbee

I'm beginning to think that MIT might be a dead-end for all but the very brilliant.
Recent news from the front lines:
1. Chemistry t.a. (not a M.I.T. grad) gave students erroneous factual information.
2. Math test: 98% = A; Class Average = approx. 85%; Under that = C and below.

PumpkinPi

S is yet undecided, and he is perfectly capable of handling rigor. He loves what he thinks is the collaborative nature of MIT. But I'm getting the impression that MIT is full of those who relish rigor not for the sake of learning, but for the sake of showing off (even among other MIT students), just as Harvard students are thought to love Harvard merely for the prestige.

Everyone will defend the rigor of one's own college, and it serves no purpose for those choosing. Individuals have power to determine what they gain in any situation.

I'd much rather hear about how the "rigor" helps one learn, and how that learning can be applied to help the world.

jessiehl

Who says that it's an either/or situation?

To give a very simple answer...I learned more from being in classes where more is expected of students. I learned to think differently, as well. And I think I am a better person, a better student, and a better worker, because I was challenged, and because I had to work hard. I think I value my degree and my education more. I am certainly more resourceful.

I don't think rigor itself necessarily does much for this. I think MIT's emphasis on theory and applications going hand-in-hand, and the combination of intellectualism and enthusiasm for hands-on work among the students, does more for that.

lizbee

There is NO question whatsoever that MIT has a very collaborative culture: students are extremely helpful to one another. It's a wonderful place in that respect.
However, I would agree with you that, from what I have been told, students are somewhat academically masochistic. But I don't think it's so much a prestige issue, as it is that they are interested in so many of the varied offerings that MIT makes available. As a result, they tend to take particularly punishing course loads -- and then gripe about being "hosed." What disappoints me, with what I perceive is a key aspect of the culture, is that students are too passive when it comes to standing up for their own interests. They accept, for example, that it's fine for the Chemistry Professor not to bother giving reading assignments -- or doing what many other professors do in the way of test prep.; they accept poor teaching from less-than-competent TA's; they accept grade distributions that jeopardize many a student's post-graduate ambitions. I guess I'm still too much of a '60's kid (well, not exactly a kid anymore!): if you're not part of a solution, you're part of the problem. Conditions -- academic and living -- should be better in such an illustrious institution (7th largest endowment in the U.S.).
The fact that many students seem to be passive, and accept sub par treatment and conditions, might be an indication that they think that by doing so they are being "tough," and "resilient" -- key words in the MIT lexicon. I wish I could perceive more assertiveness in the the student body; and I wish the Administration would demonstrate more care and concern -- and not just by hosting free food events (so redolent of bread and circuses in Roman times).

ducktape

Actually, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

But that's another topic. (this thread was getting way too serious for my tastes)

lalaloo6

^^ lizbee, do you go to MIT? or where are you getting your info?

I do not go to MIT yet, but I am on campus all the time, and I think that rather than students being passive about standing up for their own interests, at MIT students just have a non-standard definition of "their own interests."

Chemistry Professor not giving reading - well if the course has a textbook, can't the student read by him/herself without needing the reading to be "assigned"? And if you can do the problem sets without reading, what's the point of having "assigned" reading?

test prep - I think at MIT psets, lectures, and recitations are the best way to get test prep, from waht I've heard

less-than-competent TA's - I do not know how often MIT TA's are "less than competent", but I think MIT Students are competent enough to recognize when a TA is less-than-competent, in which case they can go to another TA, find an upper-class student who has taken the course before, work out problem sets together, talk to the professor, etc. Basically, I don't understand how people can complain about "poor quality of teaching" - from what I've seen, in order to really learn anything, one has to teach it to one's self anyway! And if there's something you really don't understand, you're surrounded by brilliant people, some of whom have taken the class before. So you certainly have many resources for help!

"grade distributions that jeopardize students' post-graduate ambitions" - 1) It's MIT... they came to MIT knowing that the grade distributions were tough. But if the grade distributions weren't tough, it would be Harvard :-). 2) jeopardize post-graduate ambitions: a) MIT grads get into great grad schools and have awesome jobs!!! I don't know if there's evidence to support this assertion - grad schools and employers know that MIT is a tough school, and a low GPA from MIT means more than a high GPA from ___ insert other school here ___. Plus, does anyone besides med school and maybe some fellowships or something care that much about college grades after a certain point? And it's been discussed MANY times here that MIT students *do* get into great med schools. So... I don't see how the grade distributions hurt MIT students....

I think the MIT students *like* the "academic and living conditions" - when they don't, they speak out!! (Thinking of what I've heard of the time the administration thought to require that all students go on a meal plan, for example)

Generally, "passive" seems like hardly the word to describe MIT students... and "sub-par" seems like a pretty inaccurate description of the "treatment and conditions". Maybe I will feel differently when I am a student there, but from what I've seen from talking to many MIT students and going on these boards, this is not the case! MIT students don't really need "care and concern" - though I agree that the administration does have some issues to work out, namely it's strange what the administration does to hackers who are caught, and from what I've heard, the administration does not always support certain aspects of MIT "culture".

In any case, "bread and circuses" implies entertaining and feeding the masses to keep them quiet.... and I can't imagine anything farther from MIT, or what I've seen of it!

So... yes, I don't understand your post at all, really, though feel free to correct me or explain where you are coming from! The assertions you make seem like they could be logical deductions about what a place like MIT could be like, but I don't think they are actually backed up by fact... Current MIT students or alums, correct me if I'm wrong?

KnightMair

lizbee's probably referring to the latest 18.03 test, which was uncharacteristically easy. the average was an 87 and 90th percentile was approx. 98.

That doesn't mean 10% of the class gets A's. That also doesn't mean everything else is a C.

pebbles

Sure, there are people like that at MIT. You see them walking around. There are probably even a couple in your living group. And it's a good point, and I'm very turned off by that in a sense. But there are also people who would be exactly like that if not for the fact that Harvard/Stanford isn't pushing them as hard. So you might see this happening more on a regular basis at MIT, but the students, on a whole, do not suffer from any great personality disorder to which other schools are immune. No matter what, they certainly don't "fill" up MIT. At least not nearly in the way they might fill up Caltech.

lizbee

lalaloo: Wait 'till you're actually a student. Hope your experiences are different from my child's and child's friends. You seem like an excellent match for MIT.
Many of the students who post on this board are bloggers, or bloggers-wanna-bes, and are, literally and metaphorically, MIT cheerleaders, so I think it's good to get some "balance" -- to see another perspective.
Most of the comments here are obviously subjective -- MIT can be seen through any number of lenses. My perspective is clearly different from yours.
I would simply like to see a greater level of consistency and competence in the teaching. I see some merit putting students through an occasional Sisyphus-type experience, but inconsistently graded psets, erroneous information, and professorial negligence should not be lauded or excused. Yes students can seek help from upper classmen/women but that can take a lot of time (on both parts). Seek an alternate TA -- well, it's possible only if you don't have class conflicts with other meeting times. Grad Schools not care about grades? Oh, do you have a surprise waiting for you! The idea that a low GPA from MIT will be viewed more highly than an excellent GPA from State U, is simply delusional (and a tad arrogant) -- just look at where many MIT TAs come from!
Of course many MIT students get into Harvard Med School, etc. But those are the elite of MIT. What about those students who are further down the MIT ladder? What about Mr./Ms. Average-MIT? Obviously they are smart, obviously they would do well at an institution where the competition isn't quite so searing. Are they in any way "protected?" Or do they loose out in the academic re-shuffle after graduation?
Sub par living conditions? Don't get me wrong here -- dorms were relatively low on both my and child's priority list. But compare MIT dorms with those of many other so-called "top tier" universities....
MIT is a great institution; the students are talented, kind, and considerate, and the opportunities are superb. But it could be better -- so why be complacent?

molliebatmit

Almost all of the bloggers and former bloggers who post here were on CC first and bloggers later -- I know that's true of me, Laura, Lulu, Chris, and Anthony. We're not parroting any sort of admissions line here.

Right, they come from MIT itself. MIT is the modal graduate school destination of MIT undergrads, and MIT is also the modal undergrad source of MIT graduate students.

Anecdotally, I had a 4.4 when I applied to graduate school, rather significantly below average in my department, and I was admitted to every top graduate program in my field with no reservations. It's not that graduate schools don't care about GPA, but students from high-quality programs are given leeway in terms of their GPAs. I guarantee that no one from a state school got into my PhD program with a 3.4 GPA.

My husband graduated with a 4.0 (which is below the graduating student average, which is a 4.2), got into MIT's master's program in his field, but chose to take a great job offer. I'm not sure anyone even ever asked for his GPA -- they didn't need to.

Again, I don't think MIT is perfect. But on the list of things I would change about MIT, the interiors of dorms and forcing professors to give reading assignments are not high up there.