The Comm. and Hazing - Page 4

USNA69 · 09-13-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keydet

whether they are from VMI or even graduates from Navy 39 years ago who seem to mostly revel in knocking fine schools pretty much because they are either unschooled, ignorant, incapable of appreciating that there are different ways to achieve an end,

VMI ceased to become an effictive source for military officers when it failed to welcome the admission of women and as such will receive no automatic respect from me as will the other SAs. Reluctant compliance does not solve the issue.

Yes I am incapable of appreciating that the proper method of training officers is to exclude one portion of them.

ScreamingEagle · 09-13-2008, 07:17 PM

I think we've hit on this before in other threads, but no one commissioning source has the 'answer key' to leadership. It all depends on the individual as there are plenty of UMSA grads that are turds and plenty of ROTC/OCS grads that are studs. What I think everyone needs to realize, and accept, that will make us all get along better, is that the SAs provide the best RESOURCES to set a future officer up for success. Plainly stated, if you graduate from an SA and are not fully prepared, you have no one to blame besides yourself, whereas if you were an ROTC grad, you might have a legitimate excuse in that something wasnt taught to you in pre commisioning. Everyone is going to want to jump on somebody who brings up something that is unpopular; but I appreciate the educated, well thought out responses that USNA69 and keydet brought to this light, that is what makes this place such a valuable resource. Keep up the fire

keydet · 09-13-2008, 10:42 PM

06:15 PM #46
USNA69
-"VMI ceased to become an effictive source for military officers when it failed to welcome the admission of women and as such will receive no automatic respect from me as will the other SAs. Reluctant compliance does not solve the issue.
Yes I am incapable of appreciating that the proper method of training officers is to exclude one portion of them. "

Imagine my shock and disappointment at this unusual post- USNA69 doesn't approve.Well there goes the ball game. Well -maybe we'll manage to cope without his approval.

HulkHogan · 09-14-2008, 12:32 PM

wpmom2011- if you had clearly read my outlook on why VMI or even WP male cadets look down upon females you would see that I wasn't speaking about everyone but just a accepted attitude. Don't portray me to be some sort of misogynist or sexist, and please read the text with clarity before calling me out for heresay. Offcourse that are fully capable females that can adhere to the physical demand some jobs in the military offers, but relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more. That was my only objective in giving that brief statement.

keydet- let me first say that one, I find it rather dismal and repulsive for you to conjure up the conclusion that all of my information comes from so-called 3rd and 4th hand info. Secondly, I don't mean to sound condescending but I have 3 WPs and 2 VMI grads in my family tree so please refrain from the "clueless mentality."

WAMOM68- I never said I was referring to everyone, it was just a general generalization of the trend that is happening, kinda like how GW Bush got into Yale. And I meant to say nepotism rather than grades, mistake on my part.

mom3boys- you are throwing out fallacious attacks at me like I don't know what is going on in these colleges, but look who's the mother and who is the student. You claim to know what happens, but know nothing.

"Knowledge is power."

hooyahmicah · 09-14-2008, 12:49 PM

HulkHogan: Troll much?

USNA69 · 09-14-2008, 12:53 PM

Hulk, keydet. Keydet, HulkHogan. Apparently your family trees are in the same patch of woods. Go at it. And while you are there, maybe you can explain your being on a Service Academy forum. A different forest altogether.

mom3boys · 09-14-2008, 01:53 PM

http://communitiesonline.homestead.c...es/troll_2.jpg

wpmom2011 · 09-14-2008, 04:02 PM

Hulk-

I don't have to portray you as a misogynist or sexist, you already have, using your own words. Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote.

An "accepted attitude" of looking down on females? You will never see that at WP. And that's a fact!

Heresay is taking someone else's word as fact. Isn't that what you're doing?

And as to this quote, "relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more." Do NOT presume to tell me what I know! I have three children, 2 sons and a daughter. What I know is that my daughter has no trouble at all keeping up with and exceeding anything her brothers do. She is one of many smart, talented, young women that are attending West Point and the other SA's who because of neanderthal attitudes like yours, are still having to put up with this kind of rhetoric while successfully completing the same academic and military program as their male counterparts - proving that they most assuredly belong there. A warrior's brawn may win the battle, but without brains he'd be fighting in the wrong place. You may not want to research males and females intelligence statistics, you'd have to eat your words.

It's just plain sad that you actually believe what you're saying. And to think that one day my daughter is going to fight and maybe die for you to have the right to disparage her.

HulkHogan · 09-14-2008, 05:06 PM

I've been trying to refrain from trolling further, but wpmom2011 you are so eager to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's scientifically proven that when speaking about physical attributes and excellence, a average man outshines a female. I never said anything about schoolwork,etc. And how is it heresay when I have attended exercises at both schools, could that be the same for a mother? And you do realize that combat units exclude females right? I say heresay!!! Enough with the fallacious rhetoric, and leave it at that. I think I'm right, you somehow think you are right. Lets all assimilate this quote, and be done with it:

" In the heat of battle a man only has 3 things: his brains, his arms, and his compassion."

wpmom2011 · 09-14-2008, 05:47 PM

Nice how you seem to have to twist and add things to try to make your point. You didn't say "physical attributes" you said "excel more."

"Attended exercises"? Hmmm.... wonder what that means.

Women don't have to be in a combat unit to be killed in action.

1LT Laura Margaret Walker USA

LT PEREZ Emily Jazmin Tatum USA

Thank God for the brave men and women in our Armed Forces!!!

ScreamingEagle · 09-14-2008, 06:30 PM

This is absurd

Homer09 · 09-14-2008, 07:26 PM

Please don't bring up fallen grads to try to legitimize your point.

HulkHogan - I agree with you originally that VMI is tougher in many aspects. Their fourth class system is definitely a lot more brutal, and there is no real arguement to that. Does it mean by excessive hazing these cadets will turn out as better officers. I doubt it. Like ScreamingEagle said, WP provides the most resources out of any comissioning source. There are just as many good officers coming out of WP as there are rotc, vmi, ocs etc.

HulkHogan · 09-14-2008, 08:28 PM

Wpmom2011- how dare you stoop so low as to bring up fallen soldiers to defend your pathetic thesis. I repeat, reading is fundamental.

My original statement:

Offcourse that are fully capable females that can adhere to the physical demand some jobs in the military offers, but relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more. That was my only objective in giving that brief statement.

Notice where I said physical demand. It was in reference and in conjunction with excelling. Please stop with this blasphemy of an excuse to defend what lack of civility you have shown on these boards, better yet just except the humility and don't post anymore.

You have already done enough by posting up fallen comrades in battle. Do you have any shame?

I hope this is my last post on the matter, and sorry to all readers and writers for clogging it up with this rediculous debacle.

-Hulk

wpmom2011 · 09-15-2008, 08:48 AM

My apologies!

shogun · 09-15-2008, 09:15 AM

"It's scientifically proven that when speaking about physical attributes and excellence, a average man outshines a female."

I really must check here more often---TWO good laughs in one week!!!!!!

An "average" man or woman couldn't even get into West Point or one of the other SA's, and women have been in combat for a while now, both in the air and on the ground, regardless of any current "policy" about their official assignment (look for those policies to change as well.) I still remember my cadet telling me about women at WP who were smoking the "average" male cadet on the APFT, irregardless of whether you scored them as a man or woman. As far as WPmom bringing up the two WP cadets that fell in Iraq and Afganistan, you need to cut her some slack--your comments did more to hurt their cause and that of the other female WP'ers than any moral outrage you could stir up about her post.

" In the heat of battle a man only has 3 things: his brains, his arms, and his compassion."-----I know which one of those 3 attributes counts more in an officer as far as her troopers are concerned.

Hulk, it sounds like you have some growing up to do there, sir.