SpiritManager

Re Curtis - as Compmom says they don't offer an MM - but there are probably as many post grad composers studying there as there are undergrads, pursuing their Artist Diplomas.

Bartokrules

I was in no way implying that Curtis had a graduate program in composition. Just talking about music.

SpiritManager

Bartokrules - the reason I posted that is to make it clear one CAN go to Curtis for graduate study - it just doesn't lead to an MM - but it's probably just as useful a degree - both for networking, performances, and resume. Only if one wants to study at Curtis, of course!

Bartokrules

Thanks for the clarification. I think one limit to Artist Diplomas in the context of composition if one wanted to teach composition in a very academic setting such as a Ph.D program or some conservatories.

SpiritManager

Perhaps those posters looking at grad school for composition can address the limitations of an Artist Diploma vs an MM - especially if one is considering further PhD studies. I do know that at programs like Bard, the composers do not need a DMA to be a professor - in all the arts disciplines they hire working artists whose resume is their calling card, rather than a degree. I don't know how unusual that is, or not. What about Oberlin?

Bartokrules

All of Oberlin's composition faculty have Ph.D's or DMA's. At Curtis it is at least two out of three with Ph.D's. Not sure about the others. Oberlin has a great track record of placing its composition graduates directly into Ph.D or DMA programs and thus may have more of an academic bent than some others. It is just my impression that in composition, theory and musicology, there are a higher level of terminal degrees than in performance. That is the case at Oberlin.

Bartokrules

Joan Tower has her doctorate.

EarlGr8

Artist Diplomas, as a qualification, have no bent on acquiring a tenure-track assistant professorship.

But then again, I suppose MMs or MAs don't cut it either.

Of course, if you make it a wildly successful composer with lots of high profile commissions, etc., you will likely be invited to teach at schools regardless of your academic qualifications. These tend not to be the entry-level tenure-track Assistant Professorships though. More often than not, when universities hire big-name "private sector" composers, they go straight into a full Professorship, removed from lots of the typical mundane bureaucracies of true academia. For the latter, more conventional ladder-climbing academic careers, you will certainly need a PhD/DMA. For these tracks, universities tend to hire young, bright, up-and-coming composers recently completing their doctorates, and with scholarship/research experience in addition to an increasingly active and high-profile creative career.

Back to the point of artist diplomas vs. master's degrees and their usefulness for eventual entry to a doctoral program: it depends. Some PhD programs (including Harvard, Chicago, etc.) will consider applicants with just a bachelors degree, and then award the MA en-route. This is a pretty typical approach in academia (in humanities, STEM fields, etc). For these schools, I don't think having a masters vs. artist diploma in hand at application time will matter much. Other PhD programs (and all DMA programs that I know of) require applicants to already hold a Masters degree if they want to apply for the PhD; otherwise they have to apply to the standalone Masters degree. I know UCSD and Brandeis are like this; they offer standalone Masters degrees, and do not take applications to their PhD programs without a Masters. For these schools, I don't think having a grad/artist diploma will cut it; you will need an MM/MA/MFA.

Best of luck!

EarlGr8

Oh and PS -

Just quickly about anecdotal sentiment about teaching jobs where you "don't need a doctorate," you may be eligible to apply there without one, but you WILL be competing with 150-300 applicants for every job who DO have theirs.

And if you look at composers who don't have their doctorates who have won teaching jobs, they tend to be already well-established successful composers who are doing very innovative work; not fresh young faces on the scene out of school with a budding career.

compmom

Earlgr8 your presence on this forum is most appreciated

Bartokrules

To add to what EarlGr8 has posted, many schools retain composers in residence as well as visiting professors both of which are non-tenure track. Many but not all of the CIRs have a main teaching gig elsewhere. David Lange is Oberlin's Composer in Residence and is on the Faculty at Yale. He does have a DMA although not all CIRs do. The same is true for visiting professors. These are ways for schools to expand their faculty while managing costs.