TwinDad

Thanks to the brain trust on this site, we’ve compiled a list of schools to consider for music ed for my son (a junior in HS). Now can I appeal to the collective wisdom again for advice on how to make a decision between the schools? In particular, given that his goal is to teach secondary school instrumentals (jazz band, marching band, concert band), is there a reason to choose one of the “high-priced spreads” over a strong program at a state school?

I’ll list the schools below, but first a little context. My son gets A’s and B’s in all honors courses (hasn’t taken SAT’s yet); baritone soloist in school marching band and Div. III drum corps; second trombone in school’s gold medal jazz band and gold medal trombone ensemble; first trombone, second chair in Massachusetts district concert band. Also plays in a ska band, and plays drums and keyboard (the latter self-taught). Isn’t interested in being a performance major, but wants to continue to play jazz and march in college.

Given all that, any insights into the relative merits of the following schools will be much appreciated!

West Chester U. (PA state system)
SUNY Potsdam
SUNY Fredonia
University of New Hampshire
UMass Amherst
University of Connecticut
Indiana University
Ithaca
Syracuse

-Allmusic-

Just saw UMass music department last week and we were all completely underwhelmed.

May be better for music ed than performance though.

rcmama

You raise an interesting issue that everyone should consider. Personally, I think everyone's college search should begin with their own state university system, and continue from there. Where to apply is a very personal decision that really depends on each family's individual financial circumstances balanced with your child's interests, personality, and accomplishments.

We looked at 14 schools in D's search, including 4 state universities. In very general terms, we found that state schools can offer a very good education that will usually cost less, but be very large environments that require more independence and initiative on your child's part to get the most out of them. We felt D would get more personal attention at the private schools. (Also D is a performance major, which raises other concerns.) Don't rule out looking at private schools just for financial reasons. Generally, private schools have more financial aid resources and may be able to offer your S a good deal, or at least one that would be close to paying out-of-state tuition at a state university.

I can't really comment on your list of schools, but I highly recommend that you and S plan some trips this school year to visit as many schools as you can. And when you visit, try to get a lesson, attend a performance and/or meet with someone in the music ed department to ask lots of questions. We found our school visits were extremely helpful in figuring out where D should apply.

Susantm

My son attends Indiana U for performance, but he says it is also one of the best in the country for music education. His high school band director went there, and I know that was one of the big points in his favor when he was hired. (He has been a great band director, too.)

Being West Coast, we did not look into any of the others you list, but I can highly recommend IU.

musicmom

Our son's private music teacher recommended SUNY Purchase to him.....as a music performance (tuba)major. Don't know if music ed applies there also. We were under the impression that Purchase was the SUNY strong in 'the Arts".

Son subsequently switched majors to music ed and is a junior this year at Mason Gross School of the Arts at Rutgers U.

thumper1

Duquesne University is my personal favorite for music education. The offer excellent scholarships, both music and academic, for strong applicants and those who audition well. However, having said that...you want to go a university which is in the state in which you think you want to teach. That way you will have the certification requirements for that state all set. If you plan to stay in NY state, for example, you would do well staying in the state to complete your music education studies. I will say that both U of New Hampshire and U of Delaware have excellent music education programs. SUNY Potsdam is the SUNY school for music education. It churns out tons of music educators...that is the specialty of that music department.

TwinDad

Thanks to all who've replied.

I get the impression that those of us interested in music ed. (instead of performance) are a distinct minority on this board. Is this thread mainly for performance majors, or are the education majors just the "strong, silent" type? Just curious...

ImperialZeppelin

I have been lurking on this thread, but not posting, since it's not an area of personal expertise. I just got back from dropping DD off at a conservatory to start her freshman year in clarinet performance and have used this site to help the whole admission/audition/decision process. This process is complex and unless your child happens to attend an arts high school like Interlochen, high school counselors don't have a clue about applying for music performance majors. Although I found this site late in the game, applications and auditions already complete, it has still been quite helpful.

It's great that your S is set on becoming a music educator. It's people like him that inspired my D to become a musician and she thought long and hard about music ed, especially since the two most influential people in her music career, her two HS band directors, were strongly suggesting, and still are, that she consider music ed. Their tack was more along the job availablilty after graduation front and to an idealistic 18 year old, that story doesn't go very far. As a parent, I'm officially neutral on the position, just hoping my child can fulfill their life's dream and make a decent living out of it. Would it surprise me that later this year or early next year I get an email saying I want to double major and pick up music ed? Absolutely not! Would I run through the mental ROI outlined below and scream in agony? ABSOLUTELY!!

All that said, FWIW I think that when it comes to music ed, like any K-12 discipline, the "normal" and "best value" track is to go for the public schools, especially the in-state schools. I feel that there is only downside in attending a school that will significantly increase your college debt load if education is a desired profession.

Let's do a real-life ROI here and I'll use Illinois numbers since I'm a resident here. First the disclaimers so I don't get flamed for something. I will be using real schools with real financial numbers but this is solely a FINANCIAL DISCUSSION and not an evaluation of the merits of any individual school. Also, let's leave scholarships out since they are a variable.

OK, I'm a budding music educator living in Illinois. There's a very prestigious and well-known Big 10 school up in Evanston. I will get a great education there, BUT it will cost me > $170,000 for my four years. My family can afford to pay $20,000 per year so I'll graduate with >$90,000 in loans and I will still have to go to graduate school.

The other option is a well-respected and prestigious Big 10 state school in Champaign. There my family's $20,000 per year will cover my 4 years so I graduate with no outstanding loans.

OK, I'm now a graduate looking for jobs. Does the > -$90,000 school open more doors for me because of it's reputation? The answer is probably yes, it will open a few more. BUT the more important question is does that school get my a $10,000 - $15,000 starting salary increase which I'll desparately need to pay off my loans? The answer to that is absolutely NOT so the diet of macaroni and cheese will continue, the thought of buying a home will remain a distant dream and the harsh reality of starting life with an oppressive debt will set in.

I've been long-winded so let me summarize my thoughts quickly. If music ed is someone's dream the advantages of cost and getting the proper accreditation if the intent is to teach in the state of residence far outweighs the glamor of private and out of state schools.

This is an inconvenient truth across the board for all education majors. As tuitions continue to skyrocket with some of the big name private schools pushing over $200,000 to matriculate, people who enter low paying fields like education, are committing finanical suicide to attend said institutions if there aren't HUGE non-loan based financial aid available to them. Yes, it is a crime that teachers are underpaid and until that truth is addressed, this spiral will continue.

Zep

binx

Twindad - welcome! Actually, this section of CC is not that old - less than a year, if I remember correctly. Us music parents who have been here longer (I've been around nearly 3 years) used to have to scrounge for help in random places. I don't think there are actually that many total posters here yet. I am guessing that yes, the majority of us are parents of performance majors, but there are also music minor, music-as-a-hook, double majors, undecided/exploring, and yes, a few music ed parents. Some of us have more than one kid and fit a couple categories. This section is for us all.

There is a fair amount of cross-over for the information -- music ed students still have to audition, for example. If you don't find what you're looking for, start a new thread and ask!

musicmom

Great post, Zep.

Our son (and our family) have grappled with the 'music ed vs music performance' issue for several years now.
It is unfortunate that it even has to BE an issue but realistically, it is.

Our son hoped to attend a music conservatory as performance major but limited his apps to several very selective and expensive (>45K) schools.
He came out with a few acceptances with some merit money. Still not feasible for our family and would result in 'life changing' large loans all around.

He's a junior music ed major at Mason Gross School of the Arts at Rutgers U. Instate for us, still 20K/year but manageable. Will he teach in public school? I doubt it. Could he if he needed to pay the bills? Sure. And my very biased mother opinion is that he'd be a great teacher.

My husband has been a working musician his entire life and knows the financial reality. He was known MANY musicians with music ed degrees that are ALSO fine musicians. They have played on Broadway and in regional symphonies. You can be both a performer and educator.

Son said a prof this year started his class with a statement: The way to create good music educators is to first create good performers. Son was very pleased to hear that.
He plans on getting everything he can out of his time in school and then will see what comes next. He's already had numerous performance opportunities and I don't doubt he has a shot at 'making it'. It's just that the shear numbers of musicians who hope to make of living at music exceed those who actually will be able to.

TwinDad

I agree with Musicmom--great post, Zep. It certainly helps put things in perspective. I suspect my son might be a little unusual, though, in that his primary goal is to teach, and he hopes to augment his income by doing gigs! Kind of the reverse of what Musicmom described.

Regarding going to an out-of-state school, we live in Massachusetts, and as far as I can tell from the DOE website here, Mass. will issue teaching licences (once the individual has passed the Mass. test) for certified/accredited programs in other states. Does anybody have actual experience with this? (We'll ask Son's music teachers as well, of course.)

musicmomic

D has a real interest in two instruments (voice and violin) and is interested in both performance and teaching. Her long-term goal is to perform and teach in a college/university setting. She was accepted as a performance major in both instruments. She is preparing to tackle a double major at a conservatory beginning this fall and will combine vocal performance and string music education (rather than violin performance). It will be very ambitious and it will be interesting to see if she can pull it off (before breaking our bank). One of the questions she asked when visiting/auditioning was about the status of music education vs performance students. Faculty were up front about the fact that the performance/audition bar was slightly lower for music education majors but in most places, this was a simple, factual statement. For her, one of the keys to learning about a program was reviewing the opportunities and successes of the music education students. On her final list, she only included programs where performance opportunities were open to all music students and music education students were well-represented in vocal leads/solos, first chairs, etc. She also heard many times that the foundation of great music education is strong performance. For music education students with a strong love of and desire for performance, these program values will be key to finding a great program, I think.

As ImperialZ mentioned, great music educators light the fires for countless budding musicians. Over time, my D was more and more inspired by the gifted and tireless faculty in her schools. Although originally drawn solely by the performance bug, she now dreams of holding the baton as well. In the years to come, we will be so proud and excited to see her in whatever stage role she takes on.

musicmomic

TwinDad -- Two points about licensure -- 1) I'm not sure most college students have decided where they want to teach, 2) Programs D considered (most out of her "home" state) all indicated that obtaining licensure in other states was not a difficult task. I have no direct knowledge of the possible issues regarding licensure in multiple states but both of D's HS music directors (orchestra and choral) encouraged her to go to the best program and never suggested that licensure should be a consideration.

TwinDad

Musicmomic--thanks for sharing your D's experience--it's very helpful to hear how other people are doing.

Can I ask what schools your D had on her final list?

thanks,
TwinDad

P.S. The "twin" part of TwinDad is my daughter, who wants to pursue musical theater. Between her and my son, I guess we will be scrapping our long-term plans to have them support us in our old age!

musicmomic

TwinDad,
D's final 3 were: U of Kentucky (a hidden music gem, in our view), St. Olaf, and Lawrence University. She ultimately chose the Lawrence for several very good reasons. The details of the final decision-making are here on the Music Forum if you want more details. You may also PM me if you want info that is off topic or not of wide interest. Good luck!