henrob

Dustinb23,

Your experience is a concern that I have with programs that have fine graduate programs, especially state schools. I believe that at times undergraduates do not get the attention they should get, that most of the faculty time and energy is spent on the graduate students.

But it is interesting that your post states that the school is more concerned about the faculty. It is important for the the faculty to perform, to use their talents for the school for a variety of reasons. But the faculty need to perform should not take precedent over the students, undergrad or graduate.

I would think that CCM performs musicals and operas using the students. Has your son auditioned for these? There are many chorus roles for students that are not cast in the solo spots in these productions.

binx

I don't know a thing about voice - my comments are more general in nature. From reading these boards, I have realized there is a great deal of variation in what kind of voice program to choose. I have always thought of most of the conservatories as "opera" schools for voice. But now I know there are choir schools, jazz schools, musical theater schools, etc. It sounds to me like your S prefers more of a soloist focus? Does he want to sing opera? Does he want to be a pop star? Nightclub singer?

I know that singer's "instruments" mature later, and grad school study is common. Maybe solo parts in operas often go to the older students for this reason. Perhaps if your S can finish his degree there, and spend the time figuring out exactly what kind of vocal music he wants to do, then he can choose a more fulfilling graduate program.

I am curious if he has taken his concerns to his teacher, and what the teacher says about it. It does sound like your S is talented - admission to three good programs. Your comments about CCM surprise me, because, as you say, they have a great reputation, and it doesn't seem like that would come by ignoring the students. How is their placement in grad schools and jobs for vocalists?

Are the other students equally frustrated? Is it possible that, after getting such accolades early on, your S is having a hard time being one of a group of good singers, as opposed to the best? That seems to happen often to bright students who end up at selective schools, and suddenly are middle of the pack (or less.) (No offense intended, just brainstorming.)

My S, who is an instrumentalist, creates a lot of his own performance ops by actively seeking out gigs. He has not played a single solo at school in his 3+ years there, except at Master Classes and such. He gets those at summer programs, local churches, and things of his own design. I wonder if there are voice programs out there who have lots of solo ops for undergrads/ underclassmen?

violadad

Like binx, I have limited knowledge of what constitutes a great vocal program. My son as well is an instrumentalist. From an instrumental standpoint, solo performances such as concertos with orchestra at my son's school were awarded based on competition or reserved for guest artists. Solo passages within the standard orchestral repetoire went to the principals, which were normally not rotated. There were plenty of opportunities for the top players to consistently be involved in performing ensemble and chamber works, student and faculty compositions, and collaborative work for required recitals. The top players on instruments were often so widely in demand that saying "no" to a specific additonal committment became almost mandatory, as the premier performers found themselves overextended.

binx brings up some good points- voice maturity, relative standing within the talent pool, addressing specific concerns directly with the instructor. Is it only your son or do the bulk of students on the whole feel this way? Is it certain studios that feel this?

Is the program structured (look at the student handbook, course catalog- whatever the operative documents are) to provide opportunities? How are these awarded, allocated? Are certain activities restricted to upperclassmen or only on studio teacher's recommendations? This is normally defined somewhere procedurally, and it's important to know specifics before committing to a program. Not all programs are right for all people.

No real answers in the above... just some thoughts and things to consider.

BassDad

Oberlin is pretty much undergrad only, so there are lots of solo opportunities both vocal and instrumental for undergrads. A handful of students there seek master's degrees in specialized programs and there are none at all at the doctoral level. From what I hear, their voice program is very much opera oriented.

lorelei2702

The prototypical undergraduate ensemble experience is choir. Singing in a choir requires blending. Chamber singing usually means early music, which requires less vibrato for stylistic reasons. An opera school may only accept undergrads to keep NASM spectrum of degrees and to populate the opera choruses, with rare exceptions. Young singers should not be singing heavy roles or long roles. Scenes and cameo roles are more appropriate. For singers to be comfortable with this discipline-imposed conflict, there needs to be lots of trust and communication with the teacher, and through the studio mates an awareness of the hierarchy of age and development. Those seem to be the missing ingrediants here.

compmom

BassDad, This was great to read. I'm curious: was there a reason your D did not apply to Manhattan?

BassDad

She did not really connect with any of the teachers at Manhattan.

fhimas88888888

Hey BassDad - How much does it matter to have prestigious music profs when you're applying to grad school to get a PhD in music?

BassDad

My oldest is still an undergrad. I don't know anything about PhD or DMA programs in music. In fact, I plan on letting my daughter sort that out for herself should she decide to go that route.

mamenyu

Of course it helps to have prestigious musicologists recommend you for graduate school in musicology; it helps especially if it is a very strong recommendation.

fhimas88888888

Rather, I guess my question is will it hurt to have music profs that don't have the celebrity status that some have at the Ivy league?

mamenyu

The Ivy League does not have a monopoly on "prestigious" musicologists; the recent head of the American Musicological Society, for example, teaches at UC Davis. Think about it: PhD's from Harvard, Columbia, UC Berkeley, Princeton, and Penn don't all go on to teach at those few schools; in fact, few do. There are excellent professors all over the country, and many have great connections with the top graduate schools. On the other hand, it is a big advantage to go to the top graduate schools, which include those listed. And take a look at the list of graduate students now at Harvard: there are as many who went to Oberlin as to any Ivy League school as undergraduates and some went to conservatories.

cathymee

Great musicologists are located all over the USA.They are on staff at all different types on institutions. D picked her grad program b/c of the chance to work with a well known musicologist on the faculty at Wash U in St Louis, after using his books for her undergrad thesis research and contacting him and getting to know him.You don't neccesarily pick your graduate institution for the "prestige factor" but where faculty are working who share your area of research interest who are in need of grad students. The musicologists on staff at her undergrad institution helped tremendously with mentoring and contacts (everyone knew someone who knew someone else,etc).Now in her 3rd year of the PhD, she already has contacts all over due to being active in the professional society for musicologists (AMS),attending the annual conference where everyone comes together, serving on a committee,etc.She also has friends who have finished the PhD and moved on to faculty positions.

mamenyu

If you have a choice of graduate schools, among the factors to consider are: how much money they offer you in fellowships (don't get into debt -- it takes years to get through these programs); the prestige of the school; the prestige of the faculty you would work with. The job market is extremely competitive.

fhimas88888888

I'm actually talking about undergraduate institutions.