Vieuxtemps5

I am familiar with colburn, having a lot of friends there.

I would caution a parent with getting hung up on "reputation". This reputation that you're saying Colburn doesn't have compared to Curtis is not exactly the best way of thinking.

Outside of the music world, no one knows or cares about Curtis. The only music school the average person would know about is Juilliard.

Colburn's orchestra is probably the best student orchestra in the united states now. Curtis is having problems with some of its departments. They're just hiring old famous grads with no real record for teaching. What made it great was that it had some of the best pedagogues ever. Now, it has a lot of great players who teach. As a result it's not the same that it used to be.

To turn down Colburn, which I think is a better place to study (better city, better school environment etc...) because you think Curtis has a better reputation would be a mistake. Colburn will pay for everything. Curtis is a run down old house and frankly, the people are a bit scarry. I find colburn people less sheltered. The playing level is as high as Curtis. They're sending an impressive number of grads to top orchestras. If your kid is really into performance, there's really much better than that school.

thumper1

>>Outside of the music world, no one knows or cares about Curtis. The only music school the average person would know about is Juilliard. >>

Ah...but for a musician, we ARE talking about the "music world". Both Colburn and Curtis are fine programs...as do Juilliard, MSM, NEC, Peabody, Northwestern U, Rice, etc. It all depends on what you are looking for, with whom you want to study, and where you want to be.

binx

I have no beef with Colburn, and am thrilled that there is another kid on the block. If possible, though, I'd love to see some documentation for your statements, Vieux. How do you know they have the best student orchestra? That seems to me like a subjective statement. I'm curious about the impressive number going into top orchestras, too. Since Colburn is a relatively new school, I'm surprised that they've had that many graduating classes already.

As Thumper says, we ARE talking about the music world. What school you graduate from does NOT give you an inch in a professional audition. But it might open doors for you for summer programs, or networking/contacts, or gigs, which in turn lead to experience and honed performance skills.

I am NOT saying Colburn doesn't have that - I have no info one way or another; it does seem like Colburn is establishing a good reputation quickly.

But I do think it makes a difference in some situations what school you go to.

If Colburn is offering great teachers, great education, and totally free college, it is definitely worth investigating. You aren't going to school for a name, you're going for an education. If a certain school, for example, is known to have a weak department in one instrument or another, that reputation can hurt. The teacher aspect is so important, I would hate for someone to jump on it - or Juilliard - or Curtis - or Podunk U. - if the teacher is not a "fit." It's all well and good to say one school has a bunch of big name performers who can't teach, and another school has big names who can. But how can any one person know how good the entire faculty teaches?

violadad

Vieux, there is validity to your post, particularly the point of "not being hung up on reputation". The general population does not know Curtis, or Colburn (or NEC, Rice, and a host of others); when they think music, they think Juilliard.

Free is good. From a parent's perspective wonderful. But not if all does not mesh for the student.

For an undergrad with the talent and potential to consider Colburn, I would hope that they have examined all their musical options, and relied on parents, private instructors, ensemble directors to guide their searchs and recommend the best potential programs to examine.

There are many variables, foremost being the fit of student and teacher/mentor in choosing an undergrad experience.

It's important to realize that there are a limited number who can actually nail
a Colburn or Curtis audition given the level of competition for the programs. Those that don't will go to Juilliard, Indiana, Peabody, Eastman, NEC, Hartt, Manhattan, etc. A few more will end up at Podunk U, because of a great instructor.

And there will be graduates of all sitting in major orchestra both here and abroad.

nycm

The New York Times just recently did a feature piece on Colburn in the Sunday Arts and Leisure section:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/ar...html?ref=music

Vieuxtemps5

So it looks like it's mostly parents on here who are looking out for their kids.

Here's how I know. I go to a top conservatory. I'm good friends with many people from all of them. I've had friends going to curtis since they were young.

Binx, I don't have any data. I can just tell you that I could name (but I will not on an internet forum) several individuals who have graduated from Colburn (in its very short history) who now have jobs with San Francisco, Atlanta, LA Phil, Pittsburg and Detroit. These kids are in their early 20s earning over 100,000 a year.

Because of various cultural influences, LA County is becoming probably the best scene for classical music. There's more gigs there than anywhere else in america, and audiences are quite enthusiastic. The level of talent has exploded and subsequently is stealing kids away from the east coast. That, and the fact that Curtis is starting to dry up. They don't have many of the key pedagogues that they used to. They don't have enough money anymore either. They're trying to fund raise so they can continue their no-tuition thing and to maybe even build a dorm. Ever notice how in the last 5 years pretty much every music school has received huge donations and has made considerable renovations? Curtis is a shadow of its former self. Rosand is pledging 1.5 mill from the sale of his del Gesu when he dies. Big deal.

I also know that Colburn is tighter because I've heard both orchestras. Curtis kids will acknowledge this too. The level of micromanagement at Colburn is pretty impressive. Teachers will come into the rehersals and pick out who is not performing up to standard. Many of the curtis teachers are busy professionals with active performing careers. They don't have this same focus. Colburn is a new school with a very contemporary way of thinking. They don't just train you like other conservatories, they are really hell bound on getting their grads a job.

I can understand if Colburn doesn't live up to some of your expectations, but just remember that everything you've heard or read of online I, and many others have actually seen and experienced.

As for summer festivals; that's really up to your kid. If your kid is good enough he/she will get in. In fact, try to get them into good festivals so that they can actually become friends with people from the schools they're interested in so that they don't base their decisions from things they read in magazines and internet articles.

As for kids landing up at Podunk U as you put it, I couldn't agree more. I regret going to a conservatory. I love my instrument a lot, I think about music all the time. But, music school is very limiting. You're around the same type of people 24/7 and it's just not necessary. I'd strongly encourage even the most serious performers to go to a REAL university. There's a new trend in my generation of kids going to Harvard/Princeton... any school within Boston/NYC/Philly or whereever else with a good teacher. They don't take any music courses, they just perform and get a real degree. I wish I'd done that. I had the option of going to one of those schools and stupidly I turned it down. Enough of my friends can play at the very highest level while getting a real university degree. You DONT need to go to music school to have a job in music.

binx

Yeah, you're right about most of us being parents. But I think this discussion is a valuable one for both parents and students looking for music schools. Some of us *old people* are not currently in the market, but hang around to share our experiences with those who are. The fact that you are a conservatory student regretting your conservatory route is another valuable piece of info for those just starting out.

I'm curious, given your regret - would you go to the Colburn school if you had to do it over again? That is, would the "free" aspect outweigh the conservatory aspect? Or are you having second thoughts about performing all together? My kid attends a conservatory, and loves it. He lives and breathes music, and is very happy to be done with academics. He is bright and capable (his older brother attended an Ivy). He just sees anything that is not music as distracting. But he knows several kids who have transferred schools, or turned down conservatories to begin with, because they wanted, as you do, a broader education and a chance to do more than just music. (Known as "One man's poison....") None of them, however, have continued with music, for whatever reason.

I enjoyed the article linked above. It prompted me to try to look at Colburn's website, but all the hits that showed up on Google aren't working. If someone knows Colburn's website address, could you like it here? I did find the Wikipedia info. Colburn School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was interested in looking at the success rate of grads. (That's just one of those things parents tend to look for.) The Wikipedia article says the conservatory has only been open since 2003, so it still seems a bit early to look for "success stories." Those who entered as freshmen have only just graduated. Those who went for grad school obviously had an undergrad experience elsewhere. On Wiki, some of those (I don't know how many - didn't check them all) linked as successful grads were students who "trained" there as children, and attended college elsewhere.

The other thing I noted is that many of the teachers and grads listed are string players. Which reminds me that way back when, when my S was first looking for schools, one of my first surprises at the whole process was that a big name school with a great reputation still might not be recommended for the particular instrument my kid is looking for.

We used an earlier version of Carole Everett's book for Performing Arts Majors (I see there is a 2008 edition now. Anybody who is looking at schools might want to check this book out for ideas.) It indicated schools that were "Highly Recommended" or "Recommended" for various instruments. Even big name schools like Curtis and Juilliard didn't get highest marks for every instrument.

mamenyu

Curtis has an exchange agreement with University of Pennsylvania; Juilliard allows its students, after freshman year and subject to their grades, to take a course each semester at Columbia. Does Colburn have any such arrangement? You describe Colburn as being all-performance; then you say you wish you had gone to a school with no performance degree. That seems a little contradictory...there is a middle ground for students who want both that would seem preferable to trying to tackle the academic load at Harvard or Princeton while taking lessons privately -- I strongly doubt that many students trying to do so will have an easy time of it, or have a performing experience comparable to someone at a conservatory. Princeton's requirement of jr. and senior theses and its location would make it particularly challenging, but a full load at Harvard is also no picnic. I've known a number of good musicians who went to Princeton, Yale, Harvard, UC Berkeley, Brown, and Columbia; most ended up playing music as amateurs under the pressure of their studies. Composition is another matter.
One consideration regarding Colburn is its location, in downtown LA, a very "dead" area, with almost no population, let alone student population. It is a little bleak there.

Vieuxtemps5

Binx,

In retrospect I would should have gone to Stanford/Princeton. Princeton is a 45 minute train ride to the middle of manhattan, and I could have taken lessons with the same teacher... huge mistake I think.

I will be going to a great university that will allow me to study with a top teacher as well, and I cannot wait to start.

I think Colburn is absolutely THE place for a guy like your son. Listen, I know they're new, but LA is absolutely the best place for free lancers. Colburn can put you in touch with guys like Granat or Dukov, to get you into the movie studio business. These gigs are high paying, plentiful, and they only last 3 hours usually. Unfortunately they're quite political, but being from Colburn, it makes it a lot easier. There's so many orchestras there (the Pacific or whatever it's called literally just doubled it's salary last year). My friends going to Colburn are MAKING money by going there. They freelance and some of them are putting away money for grad school, having no expenses (you get a monthly stipend in addition to free living and tuition).

I will only go back to a conservatory for an Artist Diploma. I live and breathe music too, but I hate every music related subject besides some music history (and even now a lot of it being performance practice, is rather a useless waste of time for me and most of my friends). It all depends on what the kid is like, and it sounds like yours found what he wants.

I just want every kid out there who is interested in music school to really try and acquaint themselves with people going to one, and decide whether or not they want to live in that very insular world. I did all of the academic stuff without many problems, but to me it was a few hundred wasted hours. I almost don't want to say this to parents but my teacher, and the teachers of some of my friends, told us to "fudge" the theory and stuff like that, just pass, and spend time on our instrument. Now keep in mind he'd only tell that to people who needed the practice and who he knew could do well in the music world as performers. When I heard that it started to dawn on me that it really isn't true that everyone NEEDS all those classes. It's a terrible thing to say but every orchestra musician I know in a big 5 orchestra, not to mention successful freelancers/soloists, all skipped most of their music classes and didn't care less about any of it. That's why I would rather have been spending my time doing art history, american history, literature, even business courses.

To each his own, but just remember, that music can really insulate you and if you aren't that type of person, you can get very unhappy.

Vieuxtemps5

mam,

I don't go to colburn, I didnt even know about it when I started. I'm just saying if you're into performance, you can't really do much better than that.

Also trying to say that it's in this 'dead' area doesn't realy matter. Do you have any idea how many universities are in the middle of nowhere and have nothing outside their "borders"? Have you been around Curtis, CIM or Peabody at night? It sucks.

My friends at Colburn have a super fun time. It's not far at all from hollywood, they often get together with the USC students only 15 minutes away. There's a great taco truck that parks just 5 minutes from Colburn even late at night. That area is a lot better than it used to be, it's now become a very upmarket area with a ton of high end lofts/condos all around. No it's not the most vibrant but it's safe and a lot of people have cars anyways. It's accross the street from Disney Hall. As a musician, it doesn't get much better than being a stone's throw away from where Dudamel has just been appointed the new music director of the LA Phil. THe other thing to remember is that a lot of kids have cars in LA, so unless you're a total recluse, it's not hard to get around and have a very active social life with your friends at Colburn.

Also, the Juilliard/Columbia thing is annoying. Juilliard is in the mid 60s in the upper west side and Columbia is like 60 blocks up at the borders of Harlem. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to leave a class like 10 minutes you gotta be up at Columbia? Then you have to come back and you'll inevitably have a rehersal/lesson which you can't really warm up for. It's a total pain and the whole lincoln center area clogs up with pedestrians in the afternoons with all the construction they're doing (which seems to never end).

I know like 15 people from Curtis and none of them are doing UPenn courses.

It would be much wiser to just go to Columbia/Princeton/Yale (the latter two you can get to Manhattan in under an hour, which some of my friends do once a week) and take your weekly lesson, if you're not into the whole conservatory thing.

cartera45

Hey, I love the area around Peabody but I'm from Baltimore and I love Baltimore. You can walk all over the city from Peabody.

Vieuxtemps5

Cartera, I was there a few years ago before the renovations.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Seriously, is the area around Peabody ok now? I was thinking one day I might go there and go to JHU at the same time. Are there now a lot of places to go out at night? Like nice restaurants/bars?

The only problem is that the level at Peabody is pretty low now so I am not sure if I want to go, but I consider all my options. JHU is a great school.

cartera45

I think there are great restaurants along Charles Street - some good ethnic places. Nice little art galleries and boutiques - a lot of personality I think. There used to be some great dance clubs around that area - I never went anywhere that didn't involve dancing so my knowledge is limited there. The logistics of doing JHU and Peabody are tough - they just aren't close enough to each other. JHU is really more in a suburb of Baltimore and Peabody is downtown - although not right at the Harbor. My D is a soprano and is not applying to Peabody, even though she likes Baltimore. The sense that I have of the voice department there is that there are departments just as good or better that are not as expensive. It loses on the "value" factor. Her piano teacher is well connected to Peabody and believes the best music school in the country is Indiana, although not necessarily for undergrad voice because it takes so long for that instrument to mature - I think Indiana took some top piano teachers from Peabody. I know nothing about other insturments there.

violadad

binx, the Colburn links must be down today, I accessed it when this thread was resurrected (yesterday?).

Vieux- I think in a year or three people will be banging the doors down at Colburn trying to get in. It will take a while for the word to spread, but it's going to be a major force in the future.

Vieuxtemps5

Viola; they already are. The string department is pretty much impossible to get into. The level is as high as anywhere, that's what I'm trying to tell people. There seems to be this idea on here that it's still this young school that has yet to find its way and eventually it will be "good enough" for their kids. Believe me, it is. People are obsessed with Curtis here - Colburn is every bit as good, with probably a better future and much better facilities. Your kid is a violist I take it - well last year 2 violists got the highest paying section jobs in the world straight out of school. Don't kid yourself, Colburn is already as good as any school as far as performance is concerned.