thumper1

Tango...I'm going to take another opinion. If you have a bad English teacher...you are stuck with them for the whole year. You can't go to an "outside" English teacher for your primary instruction. You can't go to an "outside" English department for your ensemble experience. You are really stuck. I'm not trying to minimize the effect a poor teacher is on students...but that would be in ANY subject area. My kid had an AWFUL first grade teacher...awful...and there was no where else to turn. It took years to mend that fence. OTOH...musicians have other options from the get go. Private instructors, private coaches, youth ensembles, community orchestras or ensembles (e.g. with community theater productions), other "playing gigs" (e.g. churches). And if your child is really talented, that child should be seeking these types of activities and not relying on the high school music program anyway (I know you didn't....just saying this for others). The HS music program is for ALL high school students who want to play an instrument and in some schools there aren't a large variety of ensembles or teachers. The other things I mentioned are for the kids who are interested in a higher level of playing.

Yes...it's awful having a teacher who isn't very good...but that would be the case in ANY discipline.

Heck..back in the dino age, I had an awful math teacher in HS. When I got her for the second year (and the school was HUGE...there was no excuse for that), I dropped the course. Too bad...I was good in math. But I hated the person. Yes...a teacher can squash a passion.

marylandmom3

I will agree that a bad teacher is awful in any discipline. But I still think it is worse in some classes, one being Band. Our son had a terrible Algebra One teacher. We had him tutored and started working on getting in to another teacher's class. It took 9 weeks but we finally were able to have him moved to another teacher's class. We had other options that we could persue. So sure you can go to on outside teacher for your primary instruction.

There is usually only one band teacher at a school. Sure our daugher had a private teacher and interacted with other band directors in all-county, tri-county, etc. but so did the top students at another HS 10 miles away. And their band director stayed after school and helped them prepare for competitions, she allowed the students that played sports to still participate in the marching band when they could, and created many more opportunities for her students to play. At our D's school it was the one winter concert and one spring concert and that was it. Her band director often called them morons, idiots, etc. He told us when asked that our daughter just didn't understand his sarcasm. We dealt with four years of this. We also always felt that he didn't particularly care for freshman that made symphonic band. We certainly didn't rely on the HS band class to meet all of her needs but that class is part of what she did. And certainly there are students that don't have the money or the parental support to have the same opportunities as our D. Most college applications asked for recommendations from both the HS and private music teacher. For the first two years of her HS career we lived in a rural area. It was 30 minutes to her HS...45 to the private lessons...the closest youth ensemble was an hour and half away(if you didn't hit any traffic during rush hour)...so that wasn't an option. A band teacher just like every other teacher should be able to meet the instructional needs of all the students. HS English is for All students but the brightest students are not expected to get a tutor in order to have their needs met. Most schools offer AP and other higher level classes for students that excel in English.

BTW research does show that when an elementary student has an incompetent teacher it takes about three years for them make up the difference and be on the level they would have been on without the bad teacher.

stringfollies

Thumper - many, many musical kids are very shy. I know because I have one of them. He would have withered under a band instuctor like the one described by marylandmom3. We wouldn't have let it be because we are proactive parents, but not all gifted musical kids have parents like those of us on CC and they would simply get left behind.

binx

Are you sure? Neither of my music kids used their HS music teacher for any recommendation. No school specifically asked for this. Both kids used their private teacher as primary rec. When additional recs were required, D used previous private teacher and/or community youth orchestra director. S used teacher/director of a summer program, and perhaps a teacher he studied with in Germany (can't remember if he actually got a rec, or just provided contact info.)

They sought out music folk who would be respected by the admissions dept, and who would be able to knowledgeably - and positively - speak to S or D's abilities. The HS teachers probably wouldn't have met one or the other of these criteria.

thumper1

I'm with Binx on the recommendation question. DS did have a recommendation from his HS music teacher, but he also had them from two private teachers AND the youth orchestra director (with whom he had worked for four years). No college specifically asked for a reference from the HS teacher.

Truth be known...I don't really think the letters of recommendation carry much weight in music admissions on the college level for auditioned programs. It's the audition. Period.

binx

I think the rec letter is something similar to housekeeping - nobody notices, unless it's bad. I do believe a bad rec, or a mediocre one, can raise flags.

stringfollies

I also think they are used by teachers when making studio assignments. They look to see if you've studied with a known teacher and what they are saying about you. It certainly can make a difference if the teacher at the conservatory knows the private teacher.

No school asked for a hs music teacher rec. Sometimes an orchestral conductor, always the private instructor. We also used my son's theory/composition teacher for additional recs since he has done an IB in music and she knows him well from that perspective.

-Allmusic-

My son included a recommendation from his high school director, because he knew him in a number of different capacities, and could speak to his skills and talents across genres (jazz, classical, accompaniment) and such, which no one else could. He also had instrument specific recommendations from two private teachers. We are very fortunate to have a well supported music department, and a very supportive set of music teachers. I feel for those of you whose kids do not have this, because I do not know if my son would be on his current trajectory without this program and these teachers.

Who knows if these recommendations made a difference? I only read one of the three (from the school director), but I think it is all about the audition anyway too. The recommendations, grades etc. seem to provide the tipping point only.

marylandmom3

Binx - yes, I am sure. (or I would have never said it.) We would have never asked the HS teacher for a recommendation because we had no idea how it would turn out. I can go back and check the files to see exactly which schools, if you want. She applied to Belmont, Tennessee-Knoxville, South Carolina, Middle Tennessee, Maryland, and Towson. I would agree that recommendations for music are not that big of a deal. It is the audition.

I disagree that a HS band teacher would not be knowledgeable (after four years they should without a doubt know their students' abilities) or respected by a college music department. Many of the really good ones have a lot of connections with college music departments, especially at state schools. I know we have an excellent choral music teacher in our county. Her students have sung at many big events and even at the White House. She speaks with college music departments all the time on behalf of her students. I cannot imagine a music department not valuing what she says. I know she attended a conservatory her first two years...said it was too intense and too far from home. She came home and graduated from Maryland.

I think the private music teacher's recommendation will probably be more valued. My D's first private teacher was an elementary band teacher if she had stuck with her through high school would it have meant as much as her private teacher in HS, who was principal flute in the US Air Force band? Probably not.

I'm sorry...I am just very defensive of public school teachers...at least the good ones.

violadad

I've mentioned it before, but son used recs from his hs orchestra director, his hs music department head, his private instructor, his chamber coach, and his youth orchestra director. Each knew him in a slightly different capacity, and each had valid insights as to his strengths, not only music specific, but in leadership, volunteer, and other activities.

In all his apps, the process involved admits both academically and musically, plus he was a dual degree performance/ed major. He knew exactly what each had written, and he intermixed use of the appropriate recs to support his essays and supplemental apps and thus tailored the apps to each school's format.

singermom1

For new parents that might not know....

D used a rec from her private teacher and two recs from academic teachers. No one at any time asked for the high school choir teacher rec. We realized that this would be ok after D attended Tanglewood and they drilled it into them that college music programs or schools do not care if you have been in school choir. As I talked about before, D's hs choir teacher was very negative and it was best to separate from the school program. Instead, D sang in community choirs. D was accepted to 3 top voice programs and the only music rec she sent was that of her private teacher.

lorelei2702

For a performance major, reference from private teacher, pedagogical lineage, trial lessons, and audition itself tell all. However, a music education applicant might benefit from a recommendation from ensemble director regarding how musician functioned in the ensemble.

musicianmom

Many top instrumentalists (don't know voice or composition) have been homeschooled before attending top schools. Obviously no High School recs!

Although not homeschooled, S was not involved in school music programs except as a pianist - we're not elitist, it's just that his school had no appropriate string ensemble. He did not include any HS music teacher recs although his counselor rec commented on his piano contributions to school events. I'm certain no music admissions dept. cared!

I'm sure that the usage and relative importance of recs depends on the particular school to which the student is applying. I've been told that amongst the conservatories, Music Admissions reviews them and flags potential problems, but that teachers probably won't see them. Hearsay? Who knows. As long as I know the recs aren't off-putting, I'm not going to worry.

Frankly, I wouldn't have expected S's private teacher (of 7 years) to write a glowing review with promises of stupendous talent and tremendous potential. This teacher's taught too many very talented students who win major competitions and gain admittance to outstanding schools to have mine stand out. For students lucky enough to come from one of the many fine pedagogues who have large studios of accomplished players, I'm sure the teacher's name stands by itself. I figured that if a teacher did see a "so so" rec on S, they would read appropriately between the lines. Didn't seem to hinder S's admissions options. (And I didn't read S's rec's before they went out - I have all the objective honesty I can deal with between my own two ears!!)

Along those lines, I know S's teacher discussed his playing and "weaknesses" (I perhaps could have done with less honesty) with at least one potential teacher before a trial lesson. That teacher later offered him a studio spot following his audition.

Finally, I know teachers who have the students themselves complete the rec forms and then turn it into the teacher for signature. Admissions depts have to know this, too.

When in doubt, spend the extra worry on audition preparation!!!!!

tango14

Dear Marylandmom,

You addressed the point I was making about not everyone living in an area where multiple out of hs playing opportunities are available. We were fortunate to have an excellent private teacher, but the playing opportunities were basically nill or a couple of songs now & then with the local amateur blues band. This was good performance experience (ie. having a beer-drinking audience member/dancer/fan lean on his shoulder during a solo!), but not very helpful musically. State competitions were about the only way to get some items on his resume and to go out of the community, but you had to be in hs band to do those. We pretty much gave up on state jazz competition because you had to be in marching band to audition, and S felt it took too much time from practice and brought him nothing musically. S ended up adding clarinet, flute & tuba (rather than sax) in these instances so he would at least be acquiring some new skill.

I agree we should support and reward excellent teachers, but what do we do about the not-good teachers who become obstacles?

As for the letters from hs teacher, I think one place we considered applying (but did not) required one (was it Julliard? Not sure.) We knew early on that Eastman required 3 letters from professional musicians. S had current and former sax teachers, but decided to add clarinet lessons 2 years ago to make sure he had the 3rd letter. Again, in a rural area it is not always obvious.

Great input from you all!

stringfollies

My son goes to a very small private international school. The music program is de minimum although he has participated and his music teacher loves him, but has taught him very little!

For teacher recommendations, he used his current teacher's everywhere. He had a mix of the following depending upon the school applied to, its requirements and his perception of what would help:

- former private teacher who could also speak to his participation in prep program (performance classes, chamber music, orch, etc) for 3 years of hs
- a private teacher with whom he has done extensive coaching during the summer
- his theory/music history/composition teacher who serves as both an academic and music source for him (he is completing a Higher Level Music IB)
- his music teacher from school