memake

Dear Singermom1,

Your story is frightening. I have heard of violin studios being that cutthroat (and more), but I figure I never hear *all* sides, so who knows....but the older I get, the less I think that it's all just paranoid fantasizing that accounts for such stories.

I hope your daughter's ongoing success in auditions is some comfort and satisfaction against such teachers and competitors for you both -- I mean beyond your well-deserved pride in her.

It does seem like it's more of an issue with certain instruments/voices: violin, flute and sopranos in particular. Makes me glad none of my kids happen to play those instruments, I guess.

singermom1

Thanks Lorelei!

I should clarify the the bad experience at the competition did not have anything to do with politics but was because of my D's breathing difficulties. That would not have been a problem if D had the right teacher to begin with, (this is where being a musical parent would have helped) She was not getting any support from the "professionals" in her life and could have given up singing all together not knowing this was a fixable problem. The competition that I am refering to is the whole, "whose musical child is the most talented in the town baloney."

We had a similar experience with D2 when she won a spelling bee over the child that was "expected" to win. Everyone was mad at us!

lorelei2702

Unfortunately "mad" and "disappointed" can manifest themselves in strikingly similar ways. We all have a protective instinct toward our own, those who are our offspring as well as those in whom we are invested. Perhaps it was the lack of acumen of those other parents and teachers in assessing your daughter's talent which was the real problem.....they did not know enough to recognize what was possible with good instruction. The ONLY thing which really matters is a good voice teacher, I repeat again and again.

shennie

We live in Madison, WI, a place that has turned out to be very supportive of its young classical musicians. What we found very helpful was consultation with the UW faculty in the music dept. My son would occassionally have lessons with a couple of the teachers there even though they weren't able to take him as a full time student. During his junior year, I called one of them who knew my son's playing quite well and asked him for a frank appraisal. He was very helpful. Not only did he assess his ability for us, he has some suggestions for schools and teachers that he should consider.

I think that this approach can be helpful for others as well. If you have a local university, try and establish a relationship with a faculty member there, even if you child does not study with them. It can be very helpful in the long run.

Ofcourse, this was only one of the things we did. He also entered competitions and attended competitive summer programs. All of these activities helped us to gain an understanding of where he fit in the greater scheme of things.

singermom1

The teacher that was able to evaluate my D is a Professor.
I think that Lorelei may be right in that the other teachers did not know enough to recognize her potential.

L. Fortissimo

singermom1: your post had me cheering so i signed up to post.

congratulations on the acceptances to ann arbor and indiana. you should have no doubts at this point that you were right. i hope you are now past the point of having to fight for the right to a decent musical education since you have received this validation. i have seen this same scenario unfold not only in the entrenched musical elite of a small town but also at the university school of music level. so always be vigilant, and bravo to you and your daughter for persevering.

mercymom

Well, Lorelei is so right that the teacher is so very impt. Our S started in 9th grade with his first voice teacher after just doing his middle school choir for three years and church children's choir for four years. The first teacher was a good friend who helped get him over some stumbling blocks that helped quite a lot with All State Choir auditions at the high school level, but after two years she had to quit teaching for personal reasons.

For various reasons it took a year to find S's current teacher, a man (no gender arguments here, just sayin'). The new teacher is a godsend. Kind of like finding a pair of shoes that fit so great you didn't realize your old shoes didn't fit until you get the new ones!

Well, S is so immersed in his choir world that he wants to study choral conducting and teach, so he's auditioning for music ed. Which is great, to be sure. BUT, the current teacher told me in a parent conference that he wished he'd had S in his studio since 9th grade, because he did not get the training he should have had with the other teacher. Something about phrasing, and a couple other things I don't understand. Apparently, the current teacher thinks if S was trying to do straight vocal performance or opera, he might not pass the audition, but he should be fine for music ed. The current teacher says S learns really quick and has a great ear, and thinks if he'd had S for 4 years instead of just one, that S could pass any audition anywhere.

So, here we are. Sometimes I guess we find out about our kid's talent too late (?) to do anything about it. Or maybe we actually do the right thing stumbling in the dark, because our S doesn't want to be the star on the stage, but the great teacher guiding the classroom (at least that's what he told my mother!)

L. Fortissimo

If someone learns quickly and has a good ear, when is it ever too late?

lorelei2702

It depends on the discipline in music. There are singers having classical careers who did not take up voice study until into their 20's. I know a fellow who did the DMA with a very well known cello teacher who did not take up the cello until the age of 20, but he played lots of other stringed instruments already.

Generally speaking, most instruments require so many years to get the technique and repertory mastered that if a player does not start very young, there is not enough time to become great....and there is the advantage of the responsiveness of youth.

However, anyone can learn and get better. If success is measured by personal goals, it is never too late.

happycollegemom

as far as wondering how "good" your child's musical ability is....here on the east coast, at least, there are many avenues for determining this. both my kids were competitve, one in an instrument and one vocal. they were in all the competitve programs/groups in high school, auditioned/performed in our "Regionals" and "States", competed within the community, joined youth orchestras by audition only, etc. they had numerous private teachers, as we were encouraged to change upward as their abilities increased. hope this helps.

shennie

The problem I see in assessing ability is when students are looking at the very top schools. Making the all state orchestra or very good youth orchestra does not mean you are going to be good enough to audition into a top-notch conservatory program. Without an objective outside appraisal it can be very difficult to know what level to shoot for.

L. Fortissimo

Well, I don't know what you have to lose besides some time and money if you shoot for the top, and an audition at a top school can double as your outside appraisal. Who better to weigh in than the faculty at a top-tier conservatory? I say go for it and let the chips fall where they may. You might surprise a few people which is always fun.

It's important in music to do as well as you can from the outset. It really does matter where you did undergrad when it comes to applying for grad school. You need something concrete on your resume to get your foot in the door at the top schools. I'm sure that's a controversial statement but I do think it's realistic.

lorelei2702

Not so much controversial as puzzling. If you mean by "something concrete" that a musician has played with a youth symphony, done a concerto, won a contest, while those things are nice and part of gaining experience, they still do nothing for the admission. All that matters is the audition. Every applied music faculty considers that they are the only ones who can judge who is admissable and who is not, and they will judge based on talent and ability. Sure, bad recommendations can ruin an appication, regardless of the audition, but nothing overcomes the audition.

singermom2

So my D auditioned for a music ed program as a singer, and she must have done well, because after the audition the faculty asked why she was not applying as a vocal performance major. Can we call admissions and change the program she is applying for? Can we take one professor's comments that seriously? Should we call him up and talk to him about it before doing anything else? What is considered intrusive and what is just doing your job to figure out how your child stands re ability?

lorelei2702

The course work for both majors is probably the same the first semester. Look at the difference in the curriculums. You can e-mail the head of the voice area and ask what the protocol would be for her to change to vocal performance. They will have listened to her differently as a music education vocalist than they would have for vocal performance. She could also ask about doing a double major, a five year program usually, to achieve both a BM and a BME. The vocal performance degree qualifies a singer to do nothing, just has more emphasis on languages and pure voice work, plus there are recital requirements. If she would want to go to graduate school in vocal performance, she MUST have done junior (usually half) and senior (full) recitals. Some schools do not guarantee lessons beyond the junior year to music education majors. Additionally, at some schools vocal performance majors have first "dibbies" on spots in professor's studios, even if it means someone else gets kicked out. So ask all the questions to sort out these details. Good luck. Lorelei