violadad

singersmom, that's a tough question. Does her heart lie in performance or teaching? What does she see herself doing long term? Does she have the talent, drive, perserverance and temperment to try and make it in an extremely competitive performance field?

We've kind of been there, done that.

My son started as a double major (viola performance/music ed). Performance is his first love, and it appears that he may have what what it takes to succeed and make a living from it. Wife and I steered him to the music ed as a fall back position, and he truly enjoys teaching. Yet as he neared the end of his undergrad schooling, he realized that performance is his first love, and while he will always teach throughout his career, he dropped the ed portion of the program (student teaching and a few credits short of completion) and graduated with "just" a performance degree and a very heavy music ed minor. We did not argue or try and dissuade him. He can always complete his music ed degree (or get a masters) at a latter point in time. His current plan is grad school for performance with a chamber music concentration.

A few points: does this school offer a vocal performance major and how do the studio/ensemble/recital requirements differ for the two degrees? Can she possibly do a double major in performance/ed? A number of schools do have this option. Do you have other professional assessments besides this one professor who feels d has what it takes as a performance major?

I think a call to him and a frank discussion (including specifics) might be the best plan.

L. Fortissimo

A top tier conservatory will have scores of applicants for perhaps a few or even one opening at the graduate level. Many of those applicants will be of approximately equal ability. So is where or with whom someone studied previously not going to figure into the decision at all? I don't think so. I didn't say it is what gets you accepted, but it supports your application so it behooves you to take that into consideration when applying for your first degree. Take it or leave it.

L. Fortissimo

I think you may have misunderstood, because I said the resume matters with regard to grad school, not whether playing in a youth symphony helps your undergraduate application.

lorelei2702

I do agree that having the best teacher to advance your technique, inspire you, and develp a mature musical and performance style are crucially important. However, it is what the musician does in that audition when all by her/himself that will cause acceptance or rejection.

"So is where or with whom someone studied previously not going to figure into the decision at all?" No, it is not. I know a student who was denied a Juilliard audition based on prescreen, and several reknown teachers (including a Juilliard graduate and a teacher who joined the Juilliard faculty the next year) who had worked with and taught this musician called and wrote letters. A reconsideration was granted, a new CD was submitted, and the inperson audition was still denied. These important teachers could not even affect the prescreen, much less the admission.

My advice remains, find the best teacher no matter where they teach, get experience in ensembles (if you are an instrumentalist) with superior players, develop your "stage legs" (if you are a singer), get comfortable by doing lots of well prepared performing, and be the best YOU can be, and you will succeed appropriately. Good luck! Lorelei

L. Fortissimo

Great discussion and I totally agree that is what a great teacher does.

L. Fortissimo

Oh dear, well I'm trying to explain that the hypothetical people I am talking about have already passed their auditions with flying colors, but there are a hundred of them and one opening. I guess they just flip a coin.

violadad

L.Fortissimo wrote:<A top tier conservatory will have scores of applicants for perhaps a few or even one opening at the graduate level. Many of those applicants will be of approximately equal ability. So is where or with whom someone studied previously not going to figure into the decision at all?>

At the top level programs with few openings, most schools will weed out grad, GPD, AD and doctoral applicants through a prescreen submission, as do most if not all the major and second tier orchestras in competition for chairs.

If you don't make the prescreen cut, it's highly unlikely you will get to the live audition phase. Yes, in certain instances, the "noted" teacher/instructor tree may aid in getting a prescreen reconsidered, and in rarer cases a favor may be called and an audition granted.

In even rarer cases, a student may be accepted into a particular program for reasons other than merit.

It can work in reverse as well, as Master Teacher A will never consider teaching a student of rival Master Teacher B, no matter the quality of the prescreen, audition, or undergrad background/resume.

Yes, it happens. But not in the vast majority of cases.

Again, the best way to avoid this is to do your homework and research thoroughly.

musicianmom

For what it's worth, I'll throw in what we were told.

S's pre-college violin teacher has over 30 years of teaching experience at a major stand alone conservatory and major university music department competitive for both undergrad and grad admissions. S's teacher told us that in all those years of teaching and hearing auditions, the auditioning faculty had never reviewed student resumes or recommendations. All that was left to the Music Admissions Dept. It was assumed that Admissions reviewed for "red flags" which would be brought to the attention of faculty. The faculty, based on the audition, "picked" those students they wanted admitted.

Caveat: The violin department/faculty may not be representative of all departments, i.e. voice or wind faculties may operate differently. Also, different schools may operate very differently.

lorelei2702

Great minds, Violadad! We do think alike.

So how do they pick that one person out of the hundred, which after the prescreen is winnowed down to 15? Some of it is who loses, who makes the unforgiveable, never to be repeated mistakes. Intonation problems are fatal, no matter how glorious the sound and keen the technique. After that, it is the intangibles of talent, inspiration, soul....something which cannot be taught, raw appeal.

Of course if you are talking about singers, some voice types do not have to present quite a perfectly as others, and the line is much shorter. Classes of admitted students will be distributed across the voice types, so that the operas can be cast. The same distribution principles apply for instrumentalists, based on orchestra needs, i.e. far more violinists than cellists or flautists will be accepted.

shennie

L Fortissimo states: "Well, I don't know what you have to lose besides some time and money if you shoot for the top, and an audition at a top school can double as your outside appraisal. Who better to weigh in than the faculty at a top-tier conservatory? I say go for it and let the chips fall where they may. You might surprise a few people which is always fun."

I don't have a problem with students shooting for the top. However, I have seen a number of students who think they are much better than they are. They and/or their parents believe they are a shoo-in at major conservatories. It is the same attitude that often leads students to apply to Ivy League schools even though they are not even in the ballpark. This often leads to some real disappointment. All students, even the best, should be aware of how competitive conservatory admissions are. Having a good idea of one's abilities can help students to choose the most appropriate schools to apply to. Yes, prescreening deals with some of this, but not all instruments are prescreened.

thumper1

I agree with Shennie. Top conservatories (in fact most conservatories) are quite competitive, as are some of the top university programs (think Northwestern). Students do need to choose appropriate schools AND with that, need to find a teacher who can move them to the next level in their playing and help them achieve their goals.

How and when did *we* (the parents) figure out that our child had some ability? Well...a prominent university professor ws actually active in our state music educators association. One year, she happened to mention to me (at a social event...we had common friends) that she was looking forward to hearing about DS's scholarships in music. We hadn't even considered that he would be in the running for one. That comment made us realize that our kid actually had a tad more talent than the average bear. Now...move forward years...this same kid has gotten a very good gauge on his playing. He is at a great school with a great teacher...but it's NOT one of the "tippy top" conservatories. However, it's where he should be and he is getting a LOT of playing opportunities and terrific instruction. AND more than that, he is learning that there are orchestral opportunities outside of NYC, Phili, Chicago, Boston and L.A. that he actually has a chance of playing in. He is also learning about marketing, and other career related things.

So...one needs to know about their own level of talent and where their own needs can best be met.

jazzzmomm

It's so hard, isn't it, to strike that balance between micromanaging our kids and giving them solid guidance? I confess I don't think I'll ever feel like I've got that down!

lorelei2702

Singermom1, your message box is full. My student has a question, before she answers the inquiry. Thanks. Lorelei

L. Fortissimo

Have been out on the circuit; hope all is going well for everyone!

I think it's important to realize that applying for a graduate degree is more like applying for a job; in many, if not most, cases you will be employed by the institution as a teaching assistant or in some other capacity. There must be some reason why they ask for all that other stuff.

At least one of the top institutions had between three and four hundred applicants POST-prescreen in performance on one instrument this year.

If you're serious about music as a career, the bachelor's degree is only a first step, and it is important to think through the entire process.

Singersmom07

How and when did *we* (the parents) figure out that our child had some ability?

Slowly, step by step along the way.
In middle school they had her doing chorus solos so we got her a voice teacher. Then that teacher was going on sabbatical so we had to find another. We/she had selected DD's voice teacher in HS based on his track record with others we knew. His students learned good techniques and sounded great. You could always pick his students out at reviews. They also got into top programs. However, we did it just to let her stretch some. She started scoring very high in competitions but we never put a lot of stock in that, kind of "nice dear". She was headed for marine biology at the time. Then one day he told her she had a voice that could make money. We were shocked and it changed the course of her life. It was in her Junior year. We still were not so sure until she cleared all pre-screens and then was accepted with scholarships.

He and she did not want her in top conservatories so I guess we still have to wait on that test for grad school. As Lorelei has said, voices take time to mature and life can change. We're just along for the ride at this point.

Having the outside feedback from those not invested in your student is really important.