catbird

This is an interesting discussion. S (sophomore, piano) has the inverse situation: he's more likely to go to LAC than to conservatory, however his closest relationship by far is with the high school choral teacher. She has given him huge responsibilities and opportunities as an accompanist, and has also drawn him into vocal performance. They talk about music constantly and have a genuine friendship. No other teacher knows him as well as she does, and she thinks the world of him... pity to wonder if her recommendation wouldn't help much at either LAC or conservatory.

binx

Marylandmom3 - I'm confused by the tone of your post. I have apparently unwittingly offended you. However, at least I know that you meant it that way, or you would not have said it.

It was not my intent to challenge you. The "are you sure" part came because sometimes a school will ask for two recs, and many folks end up using private teacher and school teacher because that is all they have. I was asking to see if that might have been the case in your situation, and did not mean to imply I was questioning your character. I am not familiar with the schools your D applied to. It's interesting that all your D's schools required this, and neither of my kids ever ran into it. Great that this board can provide multiple experiences for others.

The "or I would have never said it" comment implies that you think a great deal more deeply about your posts than I do. I admit to squeezing in CC posts among other things throughout the day, and sometimes my quick notes come out not exactly the way I intended them. So I welcome the opportunity to clarify or correct.

For example, what I said:
I think you define "respected" as the opposite of dissing. Whereas I meant it as something the department would take as especially meaningful. I do not believe that any music department would disparage high school music teachers for no reason. I was speaking to my own kids' situation, where the HS teachers either did not know my kid well (my D only attended the HS one year and was basically ignored - see previous posts) or did not write well. The HS band director is a great guy. His letters are generally two or three sentences long, with a generic - "yes, I taught him, he's great." And I suspect he would write the same letter for every kid who requested one. If two kids applied to the same school, the school would likely get identical letters, and would therefore not respect them.

I'm happy that your D's teachers are everything you could want. Count your blessings!

Tango14 - Juilliard requires (or did 4 years ago) a letter from a HS English (or perhaps "humanities" - in the interest of accuracy) teacher. S did not submit anything else. They had a resume and the audition to tell them about talent. I'm guessing they got tired of reading "this kid is great" letters that could mean anything or nothing.

I have also heard - this was a while ago, and I can't remember what college it was - that noted when they got glowing reviews from teachers that did NOT match the actuality - and they remembered those teachers and discounted future letters from them.

tango14

binx,

Thx for clarifying about Julliard. I knew it was a letter needed from a hs teacher, and our experiences with 2 English teachers over 3 years was no better than in music. Plus the last one who would perhaps have been okay was on maternity leave at the wrong time.

Steve M.

How to determine your child's ability? Good question.
My son, (jazz studies - drum set) started playing music rather late (8th grade) and only decided to major in music and the end of his junior year. His high school music instructor was very good, but in a rather large department with a heavy emphasis on concert percussion, our son wasn't a "stand out" and received no special recognition. At summer music camp (soph/junior years) he was well regarded by the teachers, but did not receive any special awards for his musicianship. Because of a lack of recognition in these educational settings, there were times that I felt he might not have what it takes. His "style" was not flashy or technical - he prefers playing in a subtle, understated manner that doesn't have people saying "wow - that drummers amazing!"
However, every year that he played, more local professionals called on him to jam, sit -in and even perform paid "gigs." Many of them made comments about his ability to "play the music" with the appropriate dynamics, feel and accents! He was also very dedicated to practicing, spending several hours each day at it and really improving his "sight reading" skills along the way.
He had many "pro" mentors who gave him advice and opportunities. Last spring, his college auditions went very well and he was accepted to all three of his top choices with decent scholarships. This summer he's been really ramping it up, playing nearly every night and getting plenty of recognition from the local jazz community. Now I'm thinking maybe he has what it takes, after all.

So, my recommendation to parents ? Give your child time to develop and see where their talents may take them. Encourage your kids to play in as many situations as possible. It should be evident that plenty of top musicians never attended the prestige conservatories or won major awards as a young musician... it is a long journey. Ultimately, to be a working professional simply requires that other musicians want to play with you and will hire you. Most importantly, that audiences appreciate what your doing and will pay to hear you perform.

musicprnt

Steve M wrote:

"So, my recommendation to parents ? Give your child time to develop and see where their talents may take them. Encourage your kids to play in as many situations as possible. "

I agree totally, the biggest thing we can do as parents is encourage the child, give them whatever opportunities we can, and let them find their level. We have tried to help our son but also have tried to stay out of the way as much as possible, it always disturbs us when we see young musicians (I am talking teen years) where the parents never got out of the suzuki school mode of things (talking violin here), where the parents are hovering over a 16 year old, taping every lesson,rehearsal and master class, constantly questioning the teacher and otherwise being a pain in the tail......at some point we have to let them spread their wings and find the wind (I love hoary old chestnuts like that *lol*)

"It should be evident that plenty of top musicians never attended the prestige conservatories or won major awards as a young musician... " I agree with that in principle, but I also want to caution that it depends on the type of music and so forth. I would argue that in the classical world that may not always be true, that where someone went to school can make a difference, that every musical genre has its own level. In classical, top musicians who didn't go to a prestigious conservatory usually had something in its place, usually fantastic teachers, so it is hard to tell.....

As far as the awards go, on that one I tend to agree, a lot of great musicians never entered a competition, were not members of all state, or never won one (Yo Yo Ma said he entered several competitions and finished dead last in many of them). There are some top flight pedagogues in violin who hate competitions, claiming they don't judge performance but playing to win the competitions, and I think there is a lot of truth to that myself.

In Jazz, in other forms of music, or in composition, that can be very true. I think the key is that paths are not set in stone, that there are graduates from Juilliard and NEC and such that end up, frankly, not doing a hell of alot, and people who take the odd path and make it.


'it is a long journey. Ultimately, to be a working professional simply requires that other musicians want to play with you and will hire you.'

That is so important, and it is something that is often overlooked, at least in the world my son is in. My son has several teachers, several of whom are both respected teachers and performers in the NY music world on the violin, and they both have stressed that sometimes the big programs work against the students best interests, that they promote this attitude of competition and of being elite, and then when these kids come out into the world looking for playing opportunities, they find out that they have problems getting along with other musicians because of attitude or lack of building interpersonal skills. Both of these are people who have been around more then a few years and they aren't the only ones saying this,and both of them came out of top flite programs themselves. And given the nature of music, how tough it is to make it, a kid who thinks the sun rises and sets on themselves because they won some concerto competition or because they studied with X at school Y is going to be in for a big shock. And you have to be able to really hang in there and dog it, there is simply no other way.


'Most importantly, that audiences appreciate what your doing and will pay to hear you perform." Yep, and this is a big shocker in the violin world, there are a lot of students out there who gain virtuostic technique, who enter major competitions and win them, including ones like the tchaikovsky, and then are surprised to find themselves soloing with a small regional orchestra when they expected the Berlin Philharmonic. These kids have all the chops, but lack in many cases musicality, interpretive skills or most important, stage presence, and it is a rude awakening indeed. As a super high level pedagogue said in a master class I was in recently, hearing someone play a piece of music exactly as written, the same way time and again, might win competitions but as an audience member is excruciatingly boring.

I think what I will add is not only ability, but passion. I have seen a lot of pretty damn good musical kids, who achieved a fairly high level of ability, who had near zero passion for it, who were doing it for the wrong reasons or because they thought it was some sort of road to glory, and in every case that I was able to follow through on they crashed and burned. Given how brutal music is, how competitive and wearying and drawn out and disheartening and how much effort it takes often with so little reward, if someone doesn't have passion for the music no matter the god given talent, they are going to find it really, really tough. Our son has displayed natural ability since he started playing, but if hadn't shown the passion and dedication he has, especially in recent years, I would not be encouraging him in his pursuit of music, because I think without it he would be setting himself up to fail.

KeyofH

Hat -- I agree with some of the advice given here -- particularly the idea of getting an independent assessment from a private consultant(s), qualified to guage your child against the likely of pool of competiing students. Go to someone who lives far enough away that they will understand they wouldn't be in the running for private instruction for your child (that way you can be sure there are no ulterior motives). Consider getting a couple of opinions. Go to someone with a solid track record for getting kids into good schools or someone who participates in schools' audition panels.

Practice lessons at the schools at which your child hopes to apply are also helpful. One of the good things that might happen as a result of a practice lesson is that the professor might release the student from having to submit a pre-audition CD (for schools which normally require a preaudition cd -- not all do). If the student is released from having to submit a pre-qualifying CD that's pretty good indication that your child is at least in the running. If the professor encourages the student to stay in touch after the practice lesson that's another indication, without asking the proverbial "chance me" type of question. Another indication is if the professor asks the student to let him/her know when the student is auditioning.

Practice lessons and feedback from consultants can really give students (and their parents) a great deal of confidence. Some professors may offer constructive criticism. This should not be taken as a negative. In most cases the professor is trying to demonstrate his or her teaching style and that he or she does in fact have something to offer the student.

If the professor releases the student from the CD requirement, the student should follow-up with the music school admissions office because sometimes, somehow, the exemption may be get lost somewhere between the prof's lips and the student's application folder. Trust but verify is a good slogan here.

SopranoMom

Passion is huge. In my daughter's case, she's been singing forever. A friend has her on tape singing along -tunefully- to some pieces of "Happy Birthday" - for her _first_ birthday (she'd only ever heard it a couple of times, plus whatever may have been on a tv in the house somewhere). As a preschooler she would sing anything (and everything) from "Beauty and the Beast" and "Aladdin", all the time. Anywhere. In the bathroom at restaurants, for example - very entertaining to the other diners(!). Also as a preschooler - in the grocery store she once broke out into the John/Abigail Adams duet from "1776" where they sing about _really_ missing each other. You haven't lived 'til you've heard a 4-year-old sing "...and is my lover's fav'rite pillow still firm and fair?..(snip)..Come soon as you can to my cloister; I've forgotten the feel of your hand..." While she became more discriminating later when it came to what to sing and where, the fact is she never stopped. A former high school classmate remarked on her MySpace on how he remembers her walking down the hall to this class or that, singing things he'd never heard of, constantly.

If you get the feeling that you're pushing your kid, that may be a bad sign. If you feel you are holding on for dear life as they drag you along, that may be a sign the other direction. I have never had the passion and drive for performing that she has had since before she started school. I enjoy music-making greatly - but she lives for it. THAT's the difference.

School-system competitions and ensembles can be an indicator, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt. First, it's local in scope. Second, there may be other factors. We moved to a new school district, and the fact that there had been a particular girl who was "the" singer in this district made it so that my daughter's hopes and ambitions were not warmly received, as the other girl's mom was a long-time volunteer for the district, etc., etc.

Get as much exposure as you can, even in unrelated areas. In my kid's case, we had skating competitions, where she learned stage presence, concentration, and focus while under bright lights and the scrutiny of an auditorium and a panel of judges. She made it to nationals there, an early demonstration of her ability to commit and follow through.

So I'd say get out there and do it do it do it. Get opinions from people in a position to judge on the level you're aiming for and get several. Look for indicators of success, from competition results to a level of discipline and commitment at home. And apply to as many schools as you can afford, making sure you have a good selection of stretch, probably, and safety schools. You never know when a bad audition day will hit.

Above all, make sure it is their passion, not yours, and that they are generally happy with themselves no matter where the cards eventually fall. A strong mentally happy kid will make a good life and career for themselves, regardless of whether they get into a top school.

musicprnt

Soprano-

Nicely said! My wife and I were talking about this the other day, about our son and his future (quite natural,considering what wonderful but wacky, strange and challenging environment music is...) and we came to the same conclusion, that given his passion, his absolute joy and love for it/living for it, and what he demostrates when playing we feel confident that whatever he does he will be okay, because on top of everything else he has turned into a well balanced (well, okay, except for music *lol*), thoughtful and decent young man who this summer really seemed to find his place at the music festival he went to (we could tell, we would be im'ing or talking to him on the phone, and then suddenly he would disappear...later he would say "I can't get any peace, people keep coming into my room".

I agree totally about other experiences, besides the musical things (going to performances, concerts, master classes, watching performers on tv, dvd and you tube), he also does things like an open mike night at a local music store, which has taught him about performing in 'less traditional' spaces and also about creating an audience, plus a variety of other things.

With competitions and such I agree, you have to be careful about taking too much out of what happens there, depending on the competition and who is judging it it may not mean a lot. There are competitions out there where the judges are local music teachers who may not be that great a judge of high level talent, or who may have local bias as S.M said. I told the story in another post of my son getting an ASTA evaluation playing a piece of solo Bach. The teacher, who was basically a local violin teacher, told my son he was playing it all wrong, that you don't play bach like that, but that with his enthusiasm she couldn't knock him for the way he performed...meanwhile, he was performing it exactly like his teacher (who will be his teacher at Juilliard) taught him, and also got him praise at a master class he had a week after the evaluation, where he played it as far as he and I can tell, the same way......in other words, don't let any thing determine that.Likewise, seating placement in orchestras or winning soloist competitions in youth orchestras may or may not mean something, sometimes those running the orchestras have their own ideas about things, giving high placement, for example, to teachers who they know and like, or because some of them get intimidated when faced with really talented kids *shrug*. And as I wrote above, Yo Yo Ma entered competitions and finished last in some of them, and he started playing the bach solo suites when he was 8!