-Allmusic-

Lorelei, my son is still in the audition stage, but we have been very clear about post grad, and he has been very clear about his intentions, for many years.

I honestly do not see any difference whatsoever between the conservatory grad and the Sociology from LAC grad. What does the latter have on the former? I have no idea. The conservatory grad has a definite work ethic, dedication to a single task, ability to work in a group, follow direction, etc. Can we say that the Soc or English grad definitely has those? Not so sure. That's why I am not worried (you are free to question me about this again in..oh, about four years, and see if anyone regrets the decision! If so, I will gladly eat crow, but I do doubt it!)!

MomOf3Stars

Wow, I just read that Julliard article. How enlightening. Quick story, my D’s JH band director has a daughter (oboist) that graduated Eastman a few years back. She, ofc, went on to audition for orchestras around the country but found she would come up against 70-80 other oboists in places like Rochester NY for one chair not too mention the even steeper competition in bigger cities. Eventually she got an offer to be in the West Point Band but ofc had to join the Army. She felt it was a good opportunity; they would pay off all her college loans, her parents’ loans, and pay for her masters. But she had to join the army!!! This was a good lesson to my D, it made her realize that she needed a back up plan.

I have had this conversation with my youngest D till I am blue in the face. She wants to be a ballerina and if you thought music jobs paid badly, offered little to no benefits, and were hard to come by…we had to discuss her career plans with her JH GC last week and fortunately the GC had some personal experience with friends who had planned on professional dance careers and ended up on very different paths. I think this really made my D think, she will still pursue dance but has now said she will acquiesce to at least a minor in something else.

lorelei2702

Allmusic, conservatory curriculums are very narrow, and there is very little in the way of academic work, certainly a minimal amount which would apply to any other discipline's degree, except as general credits. A CC friend tells me about an acquaintance of hers at J who did not even bother to take her computer...her Blackberry does all that is required. The classmates at the major conservatories are providing quite a wide spectrum of cultural diversity, but this may not be easily communicated because oral language skills can be quite limited. A close family friend spent a year at a conservatory, found the intellectual stimulus of his associates to be non-existant, and the conversations shallow and uninformed. He was eager to be around folks who could talk about something other than music. Having transferred to a university, while his freshman credits count as credits, they accomplished little more than qualifying him for a parking pass. They did not even line up in a way with the university courses to enable him to do a music major under a BA, and a music minor is requiring some silliness in his course selection. It will take him a full four years to complete a BA, even with some summer courses....finding a major after so many years of concentration in music has proven to be quite a voyage of discovery and exploration...he was very unaware of the sphere of disciplines. At least at an LAC, the core curriculum serves as a foundation, no matter what the major, which is not the case coming from a conservatory. It is far easier to change majors with that background.

musicamusica

I got a graduate degree in the visual arts ,went into a non related business for 20 years ,
and now Im (strangely enough) back in the arts.H started as an actor and made his way from performance to a his current position to a well payed but below the line film worker. After this last stint with the writers strike, he cant
wait to find a "normal" job in the "real" world. One thing we have come to know is that in the arts there are no direct paths, no guarantees, no promises, no formulas. There is talent, hard work, focus, determination and
luck. And oh yah---there is plan B. I dont care if your studying medicine,
astro-physics, music or accounting. EVERYONE needs plan b.

cartera45

It may take a graduate degree to retool from a music degree, but I think it takes a graduate degree to do much with an English, Psychology, Sociology, Political Science, many science degrees, etc. etc. I don't see too many undergrads walking into incredible high paying jobs these days - unless they graduated at the top of the class from an Ivy or top LAC and they're lucky enough to get a job in investment banking - or is that unlucky enough? One of the only things undergrads are prepared to do is teach and the best teaching jobs sometimes still go to those with graduate degrees. If someone decides to go to graduate school, I don't think it matters whether the undergrad degree is from a conservatory or LAC - they look at grades and standardized test scores.

I have my own business that my D is welcome to join - during graduate school or full time if she abandons music along the way. I think music will always be in her life - perhaps it will be her avocation. She knows the odds.

lorelei2702

I am not arguing against an undergraduate degree at a comprehensive college or university, but conservatory degrees do not have that core of basic knowledge. It may be possible to take an LSAT prep course and go to Law School, but there is no other discipline which a conservatory graduate can enter as a graduate student, unless there have been courses taken from other institutions concurrently, i.e. in a joint program.

jazzzmomm

But the bottom line is there are some students who need to pursue the conservatory life--and, personally (and there will those who disagree) I don't feel it is right to push them to compromise this choice if that's what they really want to try. I have two older sons, both creative, actors, musicians, who never wanted a conservatory experience and both went on to LAC's. This current high school senior has only been focussed on music for the last three years of his life. He is dying to have the total immersion. He is extremely bright but does not have a traditional academic approach and would drag through core liberal arts classes with very little interest. I'm actually so glad that he has the option of a full music curriculum. What can you do if the drive is there? Stand back, I say!

shennie

I agree with Lorelei in many ways (the 2 of us have had this discussion.. ) but I think in my son's case, conservatory was the best option. He did not have a high caliber teacher in high school. Fortunately, he was skilled enough to audition into Eastman and work with a fantastic teacher. His skills improved tremendously as did his understanding of music overall. He did find a need to occupy his mind with something other than music and took at least one non-music class each semester, most of them at the River Campus of UR. He thought about doing a Poli Sci minor but couldn't schedule one of the required classes for that.

He did benefit from being around students from all over the world and did not run into language issues with any of them that I am aware of. He also spend hours sitting around talking politics with many of his friends, so he did not find Eastman to be an intellectual vacuum.

I think the decision is different for each kid. Had my son not attended a conservatory he would have made sacrifices on the music end. By attending one, he sacraficed breadth in his education. He currently feels like he made the better choice, but I can't say that it would be true for your child as well.

lorelei2702

If the school has high academic standards as part of its entrance consideration, and Eastman does, and speaking and writing comprehensible English is part of that requirement, it does help the environment. Eastman students take a broader curriculum than NEC, Juilliard, MSM, Mannes, Curtis, from everything I have seen, and that is the difference. Eastman respects the musical development of its students and drives the curriculum, but there is more to the education. My hunch, though I have not thoroughly researched it, is that the schools which are so narrow in focus are not accredited by NASM (National Association of Schools of Music). I do know that Eastman is accredited by NASM, but Juilliard, for example, is not.

cartera45

Lorelei - interesting observation about NASM. My D's voice teacher, who graduated from a conservatory, has steered her away from that environment for undergrad. She has applied to one, but it is not a typical conservatory.

Here is an interesting article that I don't think anyone has linked - if so, I apologize for the repeat.

Teaching Musicians to Be Entrepreneurs

violadad

cartera, I think it might have been binx who posted that link some time back, but it is worth relinking.

Two other programs that bear mentioning are Entrepreneurship Center for Music in existence at UColorado Boulder since 1998. I believe the curriculum is available to UCol SOM students and alumni, and they have also offered week long seminars in the past.

UNebraska/Lincoln has a one week intensive Chamber Music fellowship workshop in conjunction with the Chiara Quartet the Chiara String Quartet
http://www.unl.edu/music/news/072Cha...nstitute.shtml. Sorry, link doesn't work. They disable it at the close of the program, and it's usually not working again til late March or so.
UNL | School of Music | Welcome is the direct music school link, you can email Janet Seivert directly for info at jsievert@unlnotes.unl.edu

The program is geared to college/grad level ensembles, and quality of play is very high. S attended with grad students from Yale, Juilliard, Indiana. At least an hour a day was devoted to entrepreneur type seminars, which he found very informative. Some was covered in his one semester required performance business class at Hartt; much was not.

I had also posted this link earlier Of potential interest

There needs to be more of this type of practical education. Any edge these "kids" can get is a plus. There is alot of practical advice on some of the instrument specific and pro type boards as well. I would encourage those serious about a performing career to investigate all available resources.

musicianmom

I don't know if NASM accreditation means anything or not, but from their websites, the following are accredited by NASM:

Curtis
NEC
CIM
Eastman
Oberlin
Indiana University Dept. of Music
Northwestern University Department of Music

This isn't intended as an exhaustive list - just several places frequently mentioned here!

-Allmusic-

Parents who want to steer their kids away from music are free to do so. People who want to caution others about the pitfalls and pratfalls of a conservatory education are also free to do so.

However, there must also be room for those of us who disagree that an LAC or university education is better for a very serious musician. I think we all know our kids, their drive and ambition, how well they can handle disappointment, etc. Most of us here are savvy enough to know the odds of any one of them, no matter how talented, "making it".

Music school isn't a path for everyone, without question, but I also think that this board is, or should be, a place to find support for those of us whose children are going that route.

on edit: I have taught at the college level and was not terrible impressed with the intellectual level or core of basic knowledge (pitiful) of a good number of my students (this was no Harvard LOL!); my son and his music friends could run intellectual circles around these college students, who are, yes, in an LAC. I have friends who teach at top academic colleges, and say the same thing about the lack of deep intellectual connections from many of their students. So, there again, I disagree with the idea that all the intellectual conversation is happening in "colleges", as opposed to conservatories.

lorelei2702

Good luck to your son, Allmusic.

MomOf3Stars

Doing the audition rounds with my D has been enlightening as far as this subject goes. For instance, at Eastman (and Shennie has touched on this) the administrative panel encouraged the students to think about double majors with the U of R River Campus or to at least try a couple of classes there and take advantage of the clubs and other activities. They said that in no way do they believe their students should spend an entire 4 years within the walls of the Eastman campus only, that that would be detrimental to their social development. This attitude was the best thing I liked about Eastman, I was expecting more of a sleep, breathe, eat only Eastman attitude and am happy to say that is not what I found. One thing I do wonder about from Eastman is that they stated their job placement rate for performance majors is roughly 90%. If you look at the Julliard article that would appear to be a very high number in comparison. Anyone want to weigh in on whether they feel there is truth to that statement?

At Ithaca we had a meet and greet w/ the Horn professor just prior to the audition. During this time he stressed to the kids how important it was to look deeply within yourself as to why you were choosing performance, why were you choosing music ed and he delved into both sides of the coin. How difficult jobs can be to get in professional music but also how many frustrated performers become bitter teachers later on. He asked the music ed candidates to really think about why they chose music ed bc he said he really did not want anyone in that major that does not have a strong need or want to teach others what they know. Again, I was impressed.