thumper1

I think the decisions about courses of study vary from student to student. I DO, however, agree that it is important to have good written and oral communication skills....something that I think is developed partly in those core courses that are NOT music (yes...some music courses require this as well). DS attended a highly regarded university program for his undergrad with a strong core course requirement. The reality is, however, that he spent most of his spare time in the practice room anyway. He is now at a conservatory environment for grad school where they have told him his job is to practice, and play well. This place also offers courses in career development, marketing, etc...and they very much round out the course of study for MY musician son. But his primary job is to practice, play in large and small ensembles, practice, play both in his school and outside of it, practice (did I say that yet?), take lessons, and play (did I say that?). Right now, that is a good focus for him. As it happens, DS is an excellent writer and could possibly do something with music marketing or something of that sort...if he looks into that as an option. He's also an avid reader...and that is a good thing as well.

PatN

I thought folks contributing to this thread might be interested in this list of orchestra salaries for 2006-07 that someone who is a professional trumpet player (whose screen name is "Nonsense Eliminator") recently put on a website called Trumpet Herald. (a great site to which many big name trumpet players frequently contribute). I believe the figures are minimums. I include part of NE's explanation of the list as well:

"There have been a number of recent threads discussing orchestra salaries, so I decided to spend a couple of minutes and compile a more up-to-date list from the wage charts which are published by the AFM each year. (The fact that I have them in electronic form helps!) I've included all ICSOM, ROPA, and OCSM orchestras which list a minimum annual section base salary -- this excludes three OCSM orchestras (Hamilton, Regina, and Saskatoon) and about fifty ROPA orchestras. The orchestras are listed together in alphabetical order. I make no warranties about the accuracy of my cut-and-paste job, so don't go basing your life on these numbers! All figures are in local dollars, which at the moment doesn't really make much difference because the Canadian and US dollars are basically at par..."

***

"Principal fees vary by orchestra, but tend to be in the range of 25-50% over base scale, sometimes significantly more in larger orchestras. Many orchestras, particularly large ones, also pay assistant or associate principal premiums. The flip side of this is that in some smaller orchestras, there are no trumpets in the core orchestra, so these numbers may not always apply to the trumpet positions. I have rounded a couple of figures to the nearest dollar because I didn't like the way the cents made the chart look, although since tabs don't seem to work properly it looks like the dog's breakfast anyhow. Worth exactly what you paid for it!"

Alabama Symphony...........................$34,494
Atlanta Symphony..............................$74,100
Baltimore Symphony..........................$70,000
Boston Symphony.............................$118,040
Buffalo Philharmonic...........................$40,209
Calgary Philharmonic .........................$35,526
California Symphony............................$3,472
Canadian Opera Company Orchestra....$23,999
Charleston Symphony ........................$20,903
Charlotte Symphony...........................$36,000
Chicago Lyric Opera ...........................$54,210
Chicago Symphony...........................$111,670
Cincinnati Symphony..........................$88,260
Cleveland Orchestra.........................$107,640
Colorado Springs Philharmonic..............$6,823
Colorado Symphony...........................$44,333
Columbus Symphony..........................$54,372
Dallas Opera......................................$15,307
Dallas Symphony...............................$77,376
Detroit Symphony..............................$98,800
Edmonton Symphony.........................$40,947
Florida Orchestra...............................$30,090
Florida West Coast Symphony.............$27,000
Fort Wayne Philharmonic....................$23,659
Fort Worth Symphony........................$55,182
Grand Rapids Symphony....................$35,208
Grant Park Symphony ........................$10,850
Hartford Symphony............................$21,840
Honolulu Symphony............................$26,800
Houston Symphony.............................$70,805
Indianapolis Symphony.......................$72,800
Jacksonville Symphony.......................$38,036
Kalamazoo Symphony........................$20,750
Kansas City Symphony........................$39,359
Kennedy Center Orchestra...................$57,840
Kitchener-Waterloo Symphony.............$21,817
Knoxville Symphony...........................$23,477
Los Angeles Philharmonic...................$117,520
Louisville Orchestra.............................$25,575
Memphis Symphony............................$23,951
Metropolitan Opera............................$125,320
Milwaukee Symphony..........................$54,210
Minnesota Orchestra............................$90,168
Nashville Symphony............................$42,183
National Arts Centre Orchestra.............$76,866
National Ballet Orchestra.....................$20,760
National Symphony...........................$103,792
New Jersey Symphony........................$41,360
New Mexico Symphony.......................$19,944
New York City Ballet Orchestra............$64,000
New York City Opera...........................$47,850
New York Philharmonic......................$112,060
North Carolina Symphony....................$47,236
Omaha Symphony..............................$29,177
Orchestra London...............................$23,223
Orchestre Métropolitain de Montréal......$13,254
Orchestre Symphonique de Montréal....$66,976
Orchestre Symphonique de Québec......$29,076
Oregon Symphony..............................$40,941
Philadelphia Orchestra.......................$114,400
Phoenix Symphony.............................$35,877
Pittsburgh Symphony..........................$99,501
Richmond Symphony..........................$29,415
Rochester Philharmonic.......................$37,630
Saint Louis Symphony .........................$75,000
Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra..............$63,950
San Antonio Symphony.......................$26,000
San Diego Symphony..........................$46,412
San Francisco Ballet............................$41,959
San Francisco Opera...........................$66,178
San Francisco Symphony...................$114,400
Shreveport Symphony.........................$12,693
Spokane Symphony............................$14,058
Symphony Nova Scotia........................$24,486
Syracuse Symphony...........................$30,282
Thunder Bay Symphony......................$15,206
Toledo Symphony...............................$24,898
Toronto Symphony .............................$68,502
Utah Symphony..................................$57,720
Vancouver Symphony..........................$36,075
Victoria Symphony..............................$22,554
Virginia Symphony..............................$24,753
Windsor Symphony.............................$22,000
Winnipeg Symphony............................$32,476

neumes

Complete agreement with Lorelei. Wondering especially if we are talking apples and oranges when talking about singers and instrumentalists. After all, one can only sing so many hours in a day! My feeling--and I have absolutely no experience in this--is that it's even more important for a singer to experience music within a uni or lac because of that difference. And because the voice is a relatively new instrument for a young person, particularly a male! (My s is a singer, FWIW, and has not applied to a stand-alone conservatory. A good friend of his is a freshman at a famous conservatory and is NOT loving it, so that was added incentive to wait until grad school for that experience, assuming he still has this singing dream!)

srw

I have found the thread very interesting and it has got me thinking even more about all of this. My son is in a music school in a university and as part of his BM he will have taken 45 hours of core/liberal arts courses in addition to music/related classes. I noticed above that someone had posted that her son was in a conservatory and had 24 hours of courses other than music. How does this stack up with a BA in music? Anyone out there with those figures?

missypie

I am married to a singer. All my best friends in college were either theater performance or music performance majors. 28 years later, here's what they are doing:

My husband changed his major at the end to Mass Comm. Worked as a PR director for a few years, singing on the side. Has been a SAHD for about 17 years. Makes about $7000 a year singing.

Roomate-theatre major. Is the secretary to her town's chief of police.

Roomate's boyfriend-theatre major - went to seminary and became a minster.

Husband's roommate: Theatre major -Went back and got teaching certificate and teaches theatre at an arts magnet HS.

Husbands music major friends: None of the women are in the vocal performance field. Two male friends got doctorates in vocal performance and eventually got jobs at universities. One guy joined the Navy (not to sing). Another does taxes.

Several fabulous singers we know here in the Dallas area work as office temps to pay the bills while they try to find singing jobs.

Lots of folks we know piece a lot of things together to make a living. One guy who tried to make it in voval performance is the director of a suburb's community chorus, directs a protestant church choir and the choir of a jewish congregation.

HOWEVER, our across the street neighbor makes a 6 figure income solely on music. He sings. Sings and composes radio jingles. Plays trumpet. Coordinates corporate shows. Used to do cruise ships.

jazzzmomm

Missypie I love your post. This just goes to show that one must follow one's heart and it will lead you to your next step, whether it be a furtherance of the path or a divergance. I have similar stories to tell from a family of creative people: a brother who was a music major who produces radio in a small town (very happily); myself a MFA in writing (as impractical as music, let me tell you) raising children and reviewing books and getting close to writing again; music teachers galore---we just don't know where our kids will land. Like your husband, we can still get paid for doing what we love occasionally even if we can't all make a great living at it. Now, my son the African hand-drummer--I don't know about his prospects!!

violadad

I can totally understand the concerns lorelei has voiced, with no pun intended. As the parent of an instrumentalist, of course I share her trepidations about my son, or anyone's kid "making a living" from it.

Maybe that's why we like to share their successes, however small. It validates their talents, and is a point in favor of their decision. It doesn't mean they've yet arrived.

On the other hand, like shennie's son, mine has other academic interests, had a rigorous high school curriculum, as well as a conservatory level BM within a university setting, and plans for grad school performance. He is a good writer, a constant reader, and very articulate. I hope it never happens, but I am fairly confident that if he had to, he could make a living without performance.

We've also broached the subject of the potential of his losing high level paying ability to illness, accident or whim of the gods. He says that life offers no guarantees, and he says it convincingly enough that we believe him.

I've said, as have others, that you can't go in this with blinders on. Honest assessments of talent are critical along the way. You need to have a Plan B, maybe Plan C. They need to be kept dusted.

The salary list is depressing, as roughly 24-25 are what most might consider a liveable wage, and without researching further appear to be those with the longest seasons, 40+ weeks. The Canadian wages are for the most part even worse. Any instrumentalist not seeing these numbers (or earlier versions) BEFORE embarking on this path is a fool, misguided, or just plain unrealistic.

Its really a personal decision, but one that should be made with a clear head, sound professional advice, and a realistic assessment of the odds and potential future impact. They don't hand out crystal balls for any of us.

srw- to address your question, my son's 5 year BM perf/mus ed requirements was 154 credits, maybe a few more. I can't remember exactly. 30 were comprised of liberal arts/general elective requirements (same for a straight performance BM). The music ed portion added 13 additional educational theory and practicum credits, plus an additional 9 for the student teaching semester. I believe he graduated with 170 total. Students had the option of taking lower level LA requirements in English, history or math in conservatory geared classes or with the general population. He took his within the university. not the conservatory geared classes.

The general music BA at Hartt comprised a minimum of 120 credits, 84 in arts and science classes, 26 in music .

symphonymom

The answer has got to lie in encouraging society to value the arts as much as it values sports. Then we'll have more performing groups and higher salaries for those who choose (and are chosen) to perform.
My Italian friend and I were discussing musical careers today. She still believes that it is easier to make a living as a musician in Europe because music is treasured by Europeans (she says it is changing, but slowly).
Then we tried to figure out what happened with the last few Van Cliburn winners...specifically, how they are making a living. Both of our sons share an accompanist who is a Russian born Juilliard grad who is absolutely brilliant and making a living accompanying kids.
I think the only thing we can do to create more jobs in music is to GO TO MORE PERFORMANCES...bring your friends and your friends' friends!!
Boston has the highest base salary? Really???

thumper1

When DS was in London, we went to a concert at the Royal Albert Hall...which seats about 5000 people (about the same number of people who live in our TOWN). We went on the last night of a week of the same concert. Amazingly it was sold out for EVERY performance. It was quite the extravaganza. My daughter remarked "if they had concerts like this, maybe more people would go". AND we went on a Saturday night when there were at least five or six other classical music orchestral concerts happening at the same time...also sold out.

Susantm

symphonymom, Your thoughts are much the same as those my son has expressed. He is concerned that cuts in the public school budgets are leading to cuts in the music programs. Kids are not growing up listening to classical music or learning about it, and so the audiences for what he hopes to be his future career are dwindling. We do need to encourage more people to appreciate the arts and to encourage school districts to increase, not decrease, their budget for such things. Hard to do in tough economic times!

violadad

symphonymom, Met Opera is actually higher, but it's not a symphony in the same sense of NY Phil, Philly or LA.

The Boston figure, as are the rest are based on the current contract at the time the info was posted to the source(s) quoted. Some of these contracts have since been renegotiated, and a few flip-flop with each negotiation.

The contracts are not standard in duration either, so at any given time, any one of the top five or so will change positions.

The other side of the coin are the many local/regional pro orchestras. Although paid, the limited number of services make even the lowest numbers on that list look good.

I agree with the lack of arts funding in the US as being a big part of the issue. But that's a seperate thread.

BassDad

Boston has the highest of the big five, but it is less than the Met Opera Orchestra which is almost always at the top of this kind of list.

BassDad

It is also interesting to note that you have to multiply these figures by a factor of something like 100 to get just the cost of paying the salary of the playing members of the orchestra. Consider that there are a bunch of other non-playing employees, fringe benefits, printed music, travel expenses, venue rental or ownership, and on and on... Running an orchestra is not cheap these days.

violadad

add in the cost of the music director, guest artists, and in some cases top heavy pay in management/development positions that don't deliver their goods, it's no wonder.

thumper1

AND don't forget these places need rehearsal spaces too. There are costs for publicity and programs. It's pricey for sure.