goaliedad

I find this whole discussion quite interesting.

Before you all go off laughing that the athlete's parent is going to talk about the life of artists, I grew up as a violist myself in a family of children who were all musicians, one of whom played bass professionally in an orchestra for a number of years (before it folded) and now teaches privately and as an adjunct at 3 universities as well as doing some conducting. He makes a decent living and has an appreciative (singer) wife who has always had a day job.

FWIW, I had my first paying gig at age 14, but pretty much gave it up by age 18, as the playing for money took the joy out of it. For me, it became a job where you measured your accuracy more than your accomplishment and creativity. Call it burnout at a young age.

From time to time at periods of my adult life, I have picked up my instrument to play informally with friends I meet (small chamber stuff for fun - not performance) although it has been a few years now.

I look at many of the CC community with aspiring artist children coming from America's middle to upper middle class - those who have worked hard and provided that opportunity for their children to explore a medium they have discovered and have fallen in love with.

It is laudable that they want to perfect their craft and perform with the best, but when I look at what makes an artist happy in their craft, it is what YOU make of your life experience through the music - what passions of life you experience - the struggle (artist's impoverished lifestyle), the witness to culture, and the relationship of human emotion to the medium that makes a performer great. Yes, learning the technique, theory, and history of the medium at a great conservatory (or university) does add to the musician's ability to create and of course talent is a prerequisite.

But you will find that many of the great musicians are the ones who chose their craft not with the idea of performing at the met or under a such and such great conductor, but those whose love of their artform led them to sacrifice all - financial, familial and friendship to pursue their vision of what they could create. They walk the tightrope without the safetynet as it tests their inner belief in themself as well as their skill and training.

This is not to say that you cannot be great without the sacrifice of a plan b, but it is hard to say that the person without a fallback won't be more committed and dedicated.

I know in my family, my mother pushed us to be the best that we could be in our music, as music was a great escape from the inner-city existance we lived and gave us a sense of what she saw as the civilized culture of successful people. My father, on the other hand, was a more practical type who always allowed for the whimsy of music as long as we had a solid (read that secure and decent-paying) plan b that we were pursuing actively.

My bassist brother took a lot of grief from my dad pursuing a performance degree (the rest of us either persued practical degrees or had full-time employment with solid employers while completing performance degrees). However, when my bassist brother landed the small city symphony job during his last year of college, it was grudgingly accepted by my father.

Looking back, in many ways, my father's disapproval and dealing with that in many ways helped my brother along his path.

As much as we like to think of art as the serene and beautiful, much of that cannot be truly expressed without the experiencing and understanding of the pain and struggle of life and its raw inner workings.

While we here at CC debate over how our children will be better served in their "career persuit" (I don't call musician a career, but an avocation), we are better served allowing our children to experience life as it comes to them, especially the warts, understanding that it is all part of the education of a musician. If they truly have the sensitivity, life experience will bring out the artist in them. If they truly love their craft, it won't matter if they are performing in front of couple hundred unsophisticated folks in a small town HS auditorium with a touring group or a couple thousand well-heeled in a large metropolitan performing arts center.

Getting off my soap box and back to an ice rink...

PATSY55

bravo goaliedad

pianomom

Not unlike MOWC's daughter, our son who will graduate next year with a BM in piano performance and a BA in English is strongly considering Divinity School. Fortunately his advising professors are encouraging him to apply to fully funded MDiv. programs. We were not surprised when he told us he was discerning a call. We were betting on law school or seminary all along, but never mentioned it to him. I have a BM in applied jazz studies and sold cars until I moved up to personal lines insurance. After taking some pedagogy classes at the local U, I have pieced together a church music position and a private studio as many others do to have a full-time music job.

FiddleMom

My pastor was a saxophone performance major in undergrad. He was set to go to grad school in music when life took a different turn and he chose to go to seminary instead. For many years he coordinated the worship music in addition to the usual duties of shepherding a congregation. We now have a music director but the pastor still plays his sax in church for special occasions.

jazzzmomm

When our son first decided he would really love to go to a Conservatory to study jazz, there was a flurry of teasing from his precocious older brothers who said, "jazz musicians don't go to school; they have to go out and live"! But, of course, as goaliedad points out, he's from a comfortable family and MUST go to school, and, fortunately, not the one of hard knocks!

team_mom

Goaliedad-that speech gets a standing ovation in my book.

And before you go off thinking we would laugh at an athlete parent, I was recently discussing the tremendous similarities between aspiring athletes and aspiring musicians. Both practice hard, have to perform in front of audiences, have little assurances on their futures, get work-related injuries (we know about this, my D has repetitive thumb injury from practicing her bassoon so much) and both really have to love it to survive. The only real practical difference I see is that once they get to the top of their careers, some athletes make a gazillion dollars, and the best orchestra job gets you good health benefits. With all my kids wanting to go into music, (and they get my unwaivering support), I wish we could cut the difference on those last perks!

hope4freeride

The only VP major I know recently graduated from Rice, is now supporting herself in a retail position, is applying to Divinity school. Her fiance took piano and saxophone lessons in elementary school, managed to book numerous gigs and put himself through undergraduate school by doing this-even played in cruise ship show bands during summers and vacations. He is soon to graduate from medical school. Ironic for both of them that the one who majored in music in college cant find work in her profession and the one who didn't major in music has! They are both very happy, though.

violadad

What is good to see is the additional input from posters like goaliedad, missypie, mikemac and others who are infrequent posters at this forum, and for the most part don't necessarily have their eggs in this basket.

Just wanted to expand a bit on a comment mikemac made earlier:

<...the pure English or Sociology major at Average U who wants a job does something in college besides just study his major. She takes part in career-related clubs and much more importantly gets internships. Performing Arts majors could do this, too, but usually devote most of their time to mastering their craft; their summer jobs are usually related to performing and not the world of business.>

The Peforming Arts major is NOT necessarily spending all their time in the practice room or in performances mastering their craft. Those that are astute will be involved at the college/grad level in professional organizations related to their discipline, including but not limited to Am Fed of Mus locals, national music fraternities or sororities, organizations like ASTA, MENC, MEISA, instrumental societies like the American Viola Society. Devoting summers to music related jobs or orchestral/ensemble performing festivals, IS an internship.

In this respect, they are doing EXACTLY what an astute student aspiring to a career in the sciences or Ibanking should be doing. They are gaining practical experience, building a resume, developing a network for the future, guaging their expertise amongst peers. Some are even offered job/additional educational opportunities as a result of these activities.

For those with entering students, DO advise them to examine the organizations within their schools that will broaden their support base, and also to explore other areas of strong interest.

I would not advise a prospective Ibanker to trade an internship at Goldman Sachs for a summer at Aspen or MAW. To ask an aspiring performer to do the same is self-defeating, as it misdirects the focus.

Just my $.02.

musicmom

Well said, violadad.

If our son is fortunate, he will be at Aspen or Tanglewood this summer. NOT a vacation but an 'internship' similar to those more mainstream college kids pursue. The chance to study with elite professional musicians, network, compare himself to his peers, etc is invaluable.

If he's not so fortunate, he'll follow his plan B. Continue his private study, perform as much as possible, maybe sub at our local school district.
He's building that resume just like ibankers. He's been in the AFofM since age 16, regularly picks up gigs passed along from profs and other performing musicians and is putting together a quintet of his own.
Performing artists should apply the same principles to their career search as most others do, IMHO.

MomofWildChild

hope4freeride- You must be talking about my daughter! If so, note that she did NOT try to find a music job. She knew before senior year that she was called to the priesthood. She would have gone on to grad school in music, otherwise. She has an excellent corporate job. Her fiance was, in fact, a music major in college and went on to medical school. If there is another couple with this profile, I know my daughter and her fiance would love to meet them!

binx

hope4freeride - I take it you are friends with MomofWildChild!

I've read this discussion as it progresses, but haven't contributed because I can't define my position. It floats back and forth between c-ock-eyed optimist and scared to death. Sometimes within the same minute.

To say we have gone in "with eyes wide open" is to say that we know the statistics, the odds, the pitfalls. And yet, realistically, if we believed our S didn't stand a chance, we would have tried a lot harder to divert him. So maybe our eyes aren't completely clear. He, like many on here, had multiple paths open to him - he is an excellent athlete (soccer, among others), a very intelligent kid, and great writer. In music, he is also a talented composer and pianist. (He debated about horn or composition when he was applying to schools.) Certainly one of these non-music paths would have been easier - at least on the parents!

He is a senior now, and taking auditions for grad school, professional jobs, and summer programs. It seems all he does is audition! I am hopeful for each one, and yet aware that he could still be doing this 10 years down the road. He is one of the top students at his top conservatory, and yet, there are no guarantees. We supported him on the path he chose, and will continue to do so. We have never encouraged him to have a back-up plan. It seemed self-defeating. In our minds, we consider his back-up plan to be more schooling in a different field if and when he decides to go down a different road. Doing them both at the same time seems distracting from his goals.

In high school he wrote a fiction story about a comedian. A person who had been a musician, couldn't find a job, so created a stand-up routine that involved his instrument, and became famous. So we got a hint of where his head (and heart) was at - that if he couldn't find the job he wanted, he would find a job that involved music somehow outside the box.

I do not believe in the Harold Hill method of creating musicians - that is, if you believe hard enough, it will happen. I worry about the kids - and parents - who have stars in their eyes that seem to have no basis in reality. But for those kids who do have talent, and the other necessary requirements, suspending reality long enough to give them a chance at the moon is perhaps foolhardy - but really the only way I can see to do it.

violadad

Ah, binx. You summed up my feelings exactly: <But for those kids who do have talent, and the other necessary requirements, supspending reality long enough to give them a chance at the moon is perhaps foolhardy - but really the only way I can see to do it.>

Unlike your son, we actually went into this with a formulated Plan B, the 5 year double major combining performance and music ed. Those that "know" us from my postings know that son dropped the ed one semester short of fulfilling all requirements, and chose to graduate with just the performance BM.

It was a wrenching decision for him, as he loves teaching, and continues to teach privately and in small ensembles. He could not see himself teaching in a public school environment for a variety of reasons, chief among them at this juncture that it would divert him from pursuing his first love of performance.

We supported his decision, as we do his pursuit of performance on a grad level. Perhaps he saw that not fulfilling both degrees was a "failure" in our eyes. I was not, as it gave him a broader base of both practical musical and educational theory knowledge.

Even if he does not achieve a high level chair or success in a small ensemble, he will have the opportunities to build his educational and performance backgrounds to a point where he can teach at the college level. Maybe this was HIS Plan B all along, but it took him a while to get there, or at least verbalize it with us.

symphonymom

If anyone gets a chance to see Wynton and John Besh (who is an amazing chef) on Iconoclasts (Sundance Channel), it's a real treat. Wynton talks about how he grew up in a musical family (his father is a jazz pianist who struggled in the beginning). His mom and his guidance counselor begged Wynton to have a Plan B...but his dad said that it's all about NOT having a Plan B....because if you have something to fall back on, you will fall back on it. Of course, Wynton is one of those who are chosen to perform...only a handful every generation...but the message rings true...at a certain point, you've just got to go for it if that is really what you need to do. Not want to do, but need to do. If you can think of anything else you'd be happy doing, then I don't think the arts is the right choice.
Binx...from what I've read of your journey as a horn mom, you have a truly gifted son. He's doing the right thing. I look forward to hearing him in a major symphony one day.

lorelei2702

Parents who can afford to subsidize a change in direction are the Plan B. It is the others who concern me.

Much of my opining has to do with my negative perspective on conservatories for undergraduate singers, because there are so many unknowables in the maturation and development of a singing talent, and even if things go well, more experience will be gained in the provinces of LAC and comprehensive college/university life.

I do understand the value of conservatory training for instrumentalists, particularly string players, but it is a limiting environment, unless the player is very intellectually energetic.

thumper1

>>We have never encouraged him to have a back-up plan. It seemed self-defeating. In our minds, we consider his back-up plan to be more schooling in a different field if and when he decides to go down a different road. Doing them both at the same time seems distracting from his goals.>>

Binx summarized our position as well. If the time comes when another career path needs to be chosen, we will again be there to support DS in his decisions (although not necessarily completely financially as we did with his undergrad program). Right now, we are enjoying his successes this year with him...and viewing the future with the same trepidation as anyone else here with a performance major student. We hope it will all work out...some days we wonder.